Roundup, Masada2000, video of Doha Debates and more
Posted on May 22 2007 by Cecilie Surasky under Educational Institutions.US Jewish leaders breaking the unwritten rule
In what may be a very positive new sign of the times, for the first time in my memory, both Abe Foxman and Elie Wiesel “chastised” Israeli leadership for “failing to take up opportunities to solve the long-standing conflict with neighboring Arab countries.” Between this, and Eric Yoffie’s recent warning about the dangers of the Jewish establishment’s close ties to Pastor John Hagee, there seems to be an outbreak of truth-telling.
Masada2000.org hate website still fighting for life
Infamous Masada2000 Kahanist website was up, then down, then up, now down again (thanks to Richard Silverstein). Menachem Wecker, tried talking to the folks who created Masada2000 and interviewed 75 of the 8,000 Jews who appear on the S.H.I.T. List (Self-Hating and/or Israel-Threatening). Yes, this is the famously Arab-, Muslim- and Jew-hating, pornographic website put up by followers of American-born Rabbi Meir Kahane, whose political party Kach was outlawed in Israel and named a terrorist group by the US, but whose spirit clearly lives on.
Watch video of Doha Debates
Watch the Doha Debates between Norman Finkelstein/Andrew Cockburn and Martin Indyk/David Aaronovitch: Two-thirds of the student audience approved a motion claiming that Israel’s supporters are stifling Western debate about Israel’s actions.
The right feels silenced
Malcolm Hoenlein of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations complained to the Jerusalem Post about “attempts to silence Israel supporters which are becoming increasingly commonplace.”
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May 22nd, 2007 at 3:43 pm
You may have missed it, but Foxman has also been very critical about the religious right in the US. And Wiesel was a supporter of Oslo, before those accords were set aflame by Yasir Arafat. And Jewish Voices for Peace has frequently condemned Palestinian hate indoctrination of children, the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Middle East and the terror war that necessitated the building of the “Arafat Fence” that now snakes across the West Bank.
It’s true! Except for that last part.
May 22nd, 2007 at 4:50 pm
[…] Update: MuzzleWatch […]
May 22nd, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Isn’t Eric Yoffie the one who proclaimed that vote for gun control [and Al Gore] is a vote for God in 2000, at the Million Mom March event?
Eric Yoffie’s Union for Reform Judaism (formerly the Union of “American” “Hebrew” Congregations, a double oxymoron) = MoveOn.org with Jewish holidays.
Abe Foxman is the one whose group whitewashed MoveOn.org’s hate speech. ADL = Antisemitism enabling and Denial League.
I recognize neither of these as my leaders. I have no respect whatsoever for Yoffie, and little or none for Foxman.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:57 am
why are you guys all up in the face of masada2000 when you never say a word about jewwatch or any of the anti jewish hate sites?
oh yeah, i forgot, the jvp double standard.
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:54 pm
why such a double standard for israel?
can anyone answer this?
countries all over the world are dealing with terrorism militarily. you can argue that that’s the wrong way to deal with it, but it’s happening everywhere.
but only israel gets called out.
russia attacks chechnya and no one says a thing. when was the last time someone marched on washington to stop russia’s actions in chechnya?
lebanon is presently bombing the heck out of a palestinian refugee camp to kill 200 terrorists, and no one condemns them.
the US gets hit once, and destroys the government of afghanistan. as hateful as the taliban are, they did not attack us on 9-11, but no matter, they knew that al qaeda had camps so we attacked them and the world supports us. even the european countries that don’t like our iraq policy support our attack of afghanistan, so much so that they have troops on the ground there. (iraq is different. of course, in that it was a preventative war, not a response to terrorism, that’s why we have no support there.)
but when israel does exactly the same thing, people go nuts. israel has received over 150 missiles in the last couple of weeks. there has been killing and injury and a synagogue was destroyed.
if israel destroys a mosque where terrorists are hiding, the world gets up in arms. but when palestinian terrorists destroy a synagogue, where no terrorist was hiding, the world says nothing.
any other country responding to 150 missiles would have support. israel gets heck from people.
can anyone explain this obvious double standard?
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:31 pm
RVFP, I think you have a case of selective attention. Plenty of people objected to Russia’s behavior in Chechnya. Maybe there wasn’t a march on Washington about it, but there aren’t marches on Washington about every issue there is. Plenty of people are objecting to the U.S. attacks and occupations of nations in the Middle East also, and some do march in Washington about those. Nonetheless, it is my most sincere hope that U.S. troops will not still be occupying these Middle Eastern nations some forty years hence just as it is my most sincere hope that Russia will not be attacking Chechnya some forty years from now.
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:53 pm
ARVFP,
The “double standard” is easy to explain. The other countries you mention are acting on their own territories, thus their actions raise no questions of international relations. Israel is acting across what many people see as an international boundary.
Any other questions?
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:39 pm
well, chechnya is certainly a region of russia, populated by people of a different ethnicity and religion than most of the rest of russia, and some consider russia’s occupation of that country as imperialist as china’s occupation of tibet or israel’s occupation of…
of what? is israel occupying jordan, the country that controlled the land from 48-67, when israel took over? jordan has of course said that it doesn’t want the land anymore, so it can’t be jordan.
is israel occupying “palestine”? what does that mean? there was never a country of palestine, and the region that traditionally has been called palestine includes present day israel and jordan.
do you mean the west bank? maybe there can be an arab state there, but so far any controlling arab entities have not agreed to a state there. hamas still wants to see israel destroyed or disbanded, and fatah might be willing at this point, but they have lost control.
do you really want israel to pick up and leave the west bank overnight? with the way that gaza has fallen apart since last summer when israel left gaza unilaterally? you can argue that it’s israel’s fault that gaza fell apart, but even if that’s true, won’t the same thing happen in the west bank?
historically, the other arabs have used the palestinian people in their war against israel. that’s why there are still palestinian refugee camps in lebanon; the lebanese won’t allow them in. (whereas i’m sure you know there were hundreds of thousands of jewish refugees of arab countries that were welcomed into israel as citizen.)
seriously, what would you have israel do?
and b, re: 8:
“The other countries you mention are acting on their own territories… Israel is acting across what many people see as an international boundary.”
so rockets being fired from gaza into israel don’t count as violating an international boundary?
see what i mean about a double standard?
May 23rd, 2007 at 6:24 pm
The comments in the paragraph “US Jewish leaders breaking the unwritten rule” are not called for. Discussion of Israel’s actions is not at all uncommon among “Jewish Leaders”, nor are comments that can be interpreted as criticism. Cecelia is trying to convince us that there is “muzzling” by pointing out some actual criticism and then pretending that it breaks some “unwritten rule”.
Cecelia, if you really, really CANNOT find occurances of muzzling, why not admit that and shut this thing down. Be honest. Your articles either don’t relate to muzzling at all, or you cough up thinly veneered pretenses at muzzling.
May 24th, 2007 at 12:02 am
Very interesting language: “The Right feels silenced” in reference to the JPost article quoting Malcolm Hoenlein; note that Hoenlein discusses the attempts to silence all support of Israel, not just those on the right. You have basically decided to label ALL Zionists and/or ALL major American Jewish Organizations as right wing (obviously in a pejorative sense), regardless of their positions on other issues.
The Conference of Major American Jewish Organizations includes such groups as Ameinu, Americans for Peace Now, Jewish Labor Committee, and Workmen’s Circle. I guess if you’re in support of Israel as a Jewish state at all, then that must make you a right-winger, at least from the elevated vantage point of JVP. The more we see posts like this, the more it becomes apparent that JVP is not even “agnostic” on the question of Zionism, it’s entirely hostile to the concept.
May 24th, 2007 at 4:55 am
Martin - I was just about to make a similar point that Muzzlewatch seems to be serving up a pretty thin gruel lately in its attempt to portray itself and those that share its opinions as somehow being repressed by an alleged (but increasingly ill-defined) Jewish “establishment.”
As you noted, having drawn all they can from the well, they seem to now be using examples of the robust Jewish dialog regarding Israel that you and I know is going on all around us, all the time, 24/7, as somehow being a remarkable example of “courage” in the face of the supposed silencing of still voices. They seem unwilling to recognize an obvious alternative explanation: that these cases illustrate that the door they claim to be pushing on has been open for close to a century, that discussion and debate on Zionism is robust and dwarves the amount of introspection given any other national movement, and that the only thing Muzzlewatch/JVP has to complain about is that they are not automatically and unconditionally awarded victory in such a debate, as well as given the right to censor opinions they don’t like.
Speaking of that last point, any word from our friends here regarding JVP’s lawsuit to silence The David Project, the media and moderate Muslims in the Boston area? It’s been, what, two months since we were promised an explanation on that topic.
May 24th, 2007 at 6:13 am
ARVFP,
It really doesn’t matter from the point of view of the “international border” argument what the territories are, just that they are not Israel, which even Israel admits. Israel probably would have been better off in the long run from the point of view of international relations simply by annexing the territories outright–but that would have meant giving all those Palestinians the vote.
As for the idea that there’s some pro-Hamas double standard whereby Israel is condemned for violating the border and Hamas isn’t–I’m sure that’s true some places, but I live in America, where Hamas is far more likely to be condemned for violating a border than Israel is for anything whatsoever.
May 24th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
#4, “Real Voice for Peace,” I can tell you’re very upset about anti-Semtism, as am I. So can you explain why you spend so much time attacking other Jews (and defending the villification of other Jews) instead of going after the real anti-Semites like Jewwatch?
And since you call yourself a voice for peace, could you explain the connection between your continual attempts to vilify Jewish peace activists and your desire for peace? How excactly will demonizing JVP bring peace to the Middle East? Nothing I’ve seen you write on this website seems very peace-oriented so far . . .
May 26th, 2007 at 7:04 am
Dear JVP member - I’m sure RVFP will respond to you with his own thoughts, so please don’t take this as speaking for him.
I think it is worth noting that it was not he or I who started a Web site for the purpose of attacking other Jews for their alleged “muzzling” of JVP members and people who share their opinion. It was you and your organization that did that by filling this site with accusation after accusation, with little substantiation and absolutely no reflection on how your self-serving activity might play out in a wider world filled with the type of anti-Semitism you claim to loath.
Similiarly, the same question you ask regarding who truly represents a “voice for peace” could just as easily be asked to you and to any other organization that insists it be treated as a “peace group,” rather than simply a political organization. Literally nothing on Muzzlewatch has had anything to do with peace, and your JVP Web site is indistinguishable from the hundreds of partisan Web sites out there dedicated to pointing out alleged Israeli inequities and crimes, while remaining silent on all other issues, regardless of their relevance.
I believe your comment is a very good one, but it is directed to the wrong place. If you can answer your own questions with JVP as the subject, that would represent the first true bit of self reflection I’ve ever seen from a JVP member on this site.
May 26th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
I am on the Masada 2000 hate list. I’m delighted to see this abomination shut down.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:25 am
You know, I’ve never seen the Masada 2000 Web site, and I suspect I would dislike it if I did ever stumble across it. But given that several postings on Muzzlewatch have been dedicated to seeing it shut down by external forces, it does beg some interesting questions. Presuming it is every big as vulgar as people here suggest (and I will not argue that point), at what point does a Web site (or other information source) deserve to be shut down due to the opinions being expressed there (however unpleasantly).
For example, the aljazeera.info Web site and other sites (like JewishTribalReview) contain contributions from activists deeply involved with the Green Party in Massachusetts and various anti-Israel “peace” groups in the area. These sites contain stuff that is probably just as vulgar as one would find at Massada 2000. Would Muzzlewatch celebrate if they too were shut down? And how about the hundreds (if not thousands) of Middle East and Islamist sites that daily spew bile about Jews, Christians and even Muslims who do not agree with them. Does Muzzlewatch and JVP call for those voices to be silenced as well? Or does an endorsement for censorship only come if vulgarity is tied to content that the people who started this site does not agree with?
This is no small point since Muzzlewatch and JVP have shown themselves to be quite censorous when it comes to using whatever means necessary (including government power) to silence its critics (I’m speaking here of JVP’s choice to add its name to a muzzling lawsuit against various activists in the Boston area - a subject no one here seems willing to acknowledge, must less address, so we can presume my characterization of their behavior to be true - or at least unchallenged).
Given that this site poses as having something to do with civil liberties and free speech, the ongoing call to censorship of others seems to present a very different face to the pulic, one of “Free Speech for Me, but Not for Thee.”
May 27th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
if youre part of the legion of zion in america…listen to this interview.
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/05/27/scott-ritter-2/
May 27th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
and like the saying goes…either you’re pregnant or you’re not.
peace.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
12:”I live in America, where Hamas is far more likely to be condemned for violating a border than Israel is for anything whatsoever.”
i live in the bay area, where we constantly hear about how israel is violating international law and palestinians’ rights, but the constant barrage of rocket fire into israel is not mentioned, or is even excused. maybe that’s not true nationally.
israel doesn’t want to annex those territories. they just want the people on those territories to let them live in peace. they don’t always make the best possible decision toward that goal, but israel is truly between a rock and a hard place.
13: “I can tell you’re very upset about anti-Semtism, as am I. So can you explain why you spend so much time attacking other Jews (and defending the villification of other Jews) instead of going after the real anti-Semites like Jewwatch?”
first of all, i’m not attacking, i’m arguing. and a jew arguing with another jew is not anti-semitism. it’s what we do. that’s why the whole “muzzlewatch” thing is such a joke. we are always arguing about what’s right, there has always been a multiplicity of opinions. just because someone is jewish does not give them a free pass, of course not.
secondly, in many ways JVP is more dangerous than jewwatch. jewwatch is honest. they admit they are anti-semitic, no one takes them seriously.
JVP is duplicitous, like jews for jesus. purposefully calling themselves a jewish group so that they can infiltrate and destroy jewry. (oh, of course they won’t succeed, but that’s their goal. call me paranoid but i truly believe that, not of all members, but of the leadership.) other jews hear superficially about them and might think that they really are a jewish voice for peace. and other people might think that they really do represent israel or american jews.
(over 95% of israeli jews and the vast majority of american jews favor a 2 state solution, but JVP refuses to adopt that stand, just as a basic example.)
“And since you call yourself a voice for peace, could you explain the connection between your continual attempts to vilify Jewish peace activists and your desire for peace?”
please tell me what JVP has done for peace activism. you allowed people at your conference that openly want israel destroyed. you allowed them to sell t shirts advocating the destructions of israel to the paid attendees of your conference. you’re the organization, it’s your blog, i’m just one man. what has JVP done for peace?
i don’t wish to demonize JVP or anyone. i truly hope that your members want to see a safe and strong israel, as well as a safe and strong arab palestinian country (in addition to jordan, that is). but if JVP is masquerading as a pro-jewish, pro-peace group, and they are not, those of us who truly are pro-israel and pro-peace need to call you out.
and yes, jon, your response in 14 certainly does speak for me.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
i live in america, where i am now discovering that the history of israels expulsion of three quarter of a million palestinians is now just starting to be revealed, i live in america where i read the history of european jews who returned to a land after 2thousand years and ethnically cleansed it’s native people and now after only sixty years will not even discuss allowing them to return to the land from which their relatives were driven…let’s see…2 thousand years v/s 60 years…such is the politics of the chosen people…LOL.
i live in an america where criticizing other nations is not called anti anything….
it is simply the critique of their politics…
May 28th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
mr. doe,
glad to hear you’re studying history. you need to keep studying, though.
you are, of course, conveniently leaving out the fact that just as many jews were expelled from the arab countries during the same period. you’re quite exemplary with that double standard.
similarly, it is not just arabs who are indigenous to the region. of course jews have been there continuously for 4 or 5 thousand years, before islam existed. jews were also indigenous to the arab countries, incidentally, but they were systematically expelled. on the other hand, while some arabs did leave jewish palestine, jews and arabs both live in israel, the only country in the region where both peoples live and have civil and political rights.
and it doesn’t sound like you’re criticizing israel’s politics. it sounds like you’re criticizing her existence.
jd, this is not the first time you have been informed of these facts. is it obstinacy or denseness which prevents you from absorbing them?
May 28th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
actually, john doe, since you live in America, you can feel free to criticize Israel for existing as soon as you return the land on which you live to the Native Americans who were TRULY ethnically cleansed from it. Until then, you’re simply a hypocrite.
May 29th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Actually, Mike, if you live in America, you can criticize the Palestinians for attempting to violently overthrow Israeli rule over their land once you return your country to Great Britain.
May 29th, 2007 at 7:57 am
with regards to jews expelled from arab courtries i suggest you keep searching for truths…
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/impact/iraqijews.cfm
The Jews of Iraq
Article by Naeim Giladi
An Iraqi Jew tells his story of Zionist activities that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors.
I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called “cruel Zionism.” I write about it because I was part of it.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:40 am
a real voice for ingorance says….
and it doesn’t sound like you’re criticizing israel’s politics. it sounds like you’re criticizing her existence.
stick your near anti semite bs someplace where you will get more pleasure….
i criticize zionisms policies pure and simple….israel like any other state has the right to live in peace and allow it’s citizens to have hopes and dreams for the future…palestinians in israel live in ghettos, you remember ghettos dont you, just think back to poland and your dna memory shall serve you well…apartheid is the legacy of the zionist regime in israel…this sentiment has been expressed in the israeli press as well as in the knesset…..avi lieberman and a female member have both voice this sentiment….beit selem has also done a good job at describing the living conditions of the second class citizens in israel….
May 29th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
john, you sound a little angry, cursing and invoking the holocaust. you’d be more convincing without the vitriol.
you’re complaining about the condition of arab citizens of israel?
those citizens vote, run newspapers and radio stations, run for office and serve in parliament. sure, there’s some poverty. they’re not forced into ghettos, your comparison with poland is pathetic. they live in working class neighborhood like many jewish israelis and like most of the world.
now, do you want to talk about the condition of arabs in the arab countries? the fact that most of them can’t vote, women can’t even drive, they have no free media, they are monarchies and not democracies. do you want to discuss the condition of jews in the arab lands? oh, we can’t because 99% of them have been expelled.
i think you know you’re being hypocritical, and that’s why you’re so angry, because you’re losing. you can’t respond to my questions, and you can only repeat your same ineffectual arguments.
May 29th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Bill, are you STILL under the fiction that Palestinians are fighting for the end of “Israeli rule over their land” and not for the destruction of the state of Israel? I don’t recall in 1776 the goal being the overthrow of King George and the destruction of Great Britain.
unless, of course, you are claiming that ALL of Israel is “Palestinian land” and then your refusal to accept the existence of the state of Israel is revealed. Which would not be a surprise, since JVP, despite its protestations to the contrary, is no different than other anti-Zionist groups –except that they try to hide that fact.
May 29th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Actually, Mike, the Palestinian authority, the legal and political representative of the Palestinian people, has accepted a two state solution.
May 29th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Actually Bill, after the Palestinians elected Hamas (essentially a Palestinian referendum on the Peace Process)shortly thereafter Hamas repudiated any prior agreements or uderstandings. And while we have had Palestinans saying things re: “Peace”, its far more important to judge people by what they do, not by the empty words they say.
May 30th, 2007 at 8:10 am
ahh yessss………tell me the old old story…let america know…from that friendliest of nations of which the legion of zion in america is so proud of…we bring you the story of the liberty in modern day press
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11042
Remember the Liberty!
When Israel attacks, the Pentagon retreats
by Justin Raimondo
It was 40 years ago this June 8 that the USS Liberty – a large, armorless, refitted freighter that was gathering intelligence in the Mediterranean at the outset of the Six Day War – was attacked by Israeli fighter jets and torpedoes. Thirty-four U.S. sailors were killed, and 172 were wounded. The Liberty limped back to Malta. A U.S. Navy court of inquiry was on board investigating the damage, but – for some reason – the investigators were not allowed to proceed to Israel to find out what really went on. Orders from the top echelons of the Pentagon nixed the inquiry, and today, the families of the fallen still haven’t gotten any answers as to why Israel was allowed to get away with it without even so much as a slap on the wrist – nor even any public acknowledgment that it was a deliberate attack.
May 30th, 2007 at 8:40 am
a real voice for zionism says…..dont be so angry…dont hate israel…its such a pretty and respectable state…its so full of hopes and dreams…
searching for truths…
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/impact/iraqijews.cfm
tell me which are your favorite zionist attrocities? is it those perpetrated on jews in arab lands….could it be what they did to the us liberty?….orrrr maybe we can look see at what transpired during the zionist/nazi era?….the jews against zionism have plenty of tales to tell..
but alas, you will probably choose to be part of the legion of zion in america….
hiding your allegience under cover of the american flag….israel is looking for a few good men to go and protect her…why dont you guys enlist and go and do something for the cause…other than drinking martinis here in the usa and hiding under the american flag…
malcolm hoenlein and alan dershoshitz both anticipate that the relationship between israel and the usa will be taking a drastic turn for the worse in the very near future…and while i may not like their israel first policy here in america, i must concede that they are very astute men with a deep knowledge of the political arena.
good night and good luck.
May 30th, 2007 at 11:48 am
John Doe, I’ve figured out your “act”, and I suspect that we all have. The USS Liberty has been discussed at length here. Perhaps you should find a new obesession.
May 31st, 2007 at 8:29 pm
masada2000 is back up!
i really don’t see the big problem with the site. it’s mostly informational, mostly facts, with some opinion.
in any case it’s FAR less hateful than jewwatch or many other anti-semitic sites. JVP seems to have a big problem with masada2000.org. i’d love to hear them, just once, condemn jewwatch or other such sites.
i won’t hold my breath though.
June 1st, 2007 at 12:20 pm
To you really think that JVP has any interest in defending sites like Jewwatch? On what grounds? And in what way does condemnation of a site like masada2000 imply support of the other?
They both—in their different ways—seem pretty repugnant to me.
June 1st, 2007 at 3:52 pm
“And in what way does condemnation of a site like masada2000 imply support of the other?”
if a jewish group criticizes one and not the other, it is self-hating hypocrisy.
June 2nd, 2007 at 3:48 am
In the Doha debates, Finkelstein comes off looking like an idiot with nothing of substance to say, Cockburn comes off looking like a liar (he doesn’t answer how he himself has been harmed for speaking openly and negatively about Israel for years and years) and Martin Indyk looks soft and diplomatic. They really should have picked a different advocate for the anti-muzzling side.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Real Voice,
Criticizing one is an act aimed at one thing: criticizing the site in question. How could you expect every criticism aimed at a particular site to also contain criticism of any number of other sites irrelevant to the criticism? As I said, how does saying that one thing is bad imply that some other thing of *your* choosing is good? And what gives you the impression that JVP supports a site like Jewwatch? I simply don’t follow your logic.
In fact, I feel like I’m talking to a wall that speaks its own inviolate and tendentious language.
June 6th, 2007 at 11:38 am
one more thing:
it’s called a double standard. simple as that.
June 6th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
No. It’s a double standard only if you criticize one and *praise* the other. Where is the *praise* you think is there?
June 7th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
lack of criticism is tacit approval.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
But you have yet to give me any evidence that JVP has any interest in approving of anything like the sort of antisemitism expressed by Jewwatch. You might feel that there’s something self-hating in an organization that refuses to come out against a “one state solution” in the hope of establishing a coalition among Jews opposed to the present policies of the State of Israel. But that’s simply not the same thing as the sort of antisemitism expressed by Jewwatch. Trying to equate them for rhetorical purposes is a distraction from a real discussion of the issues. In terms of logic its a rather nasty combination of reductio ad absurdum and an ad hominem attack. I can see no other purpose that it could serve but to distract and inflame. I wish you’d just stop it.