Roundup, tips from readers
Posted on May 3 2007 by Cecilie Surasky under Anti-semitism , Educational Institutions.Smear campaign or academic debate? LA attorney Frank J. Menetrez tries to make sense of substance of Dershowitz, Finkelstein charges and counter-charges.
More on Jewish left debates over anti-Semitism: Anti-war and Palestinian rights activists Matthew Richman, history PhD student at the University of Pennsylvania, writes this response to “The Past Didn’t Go Anywhere: Making Resistance to Anti-Semitism Part of All of Our Movements,” on his blog here.
Ynet reports “Majority of Oxford Union students say pro-Israel lobby stifling debate.”
Nathan Guttman writes in the Forward, “A prominent liberal think tank is launching a new e-mail newsletter following claims that the main daily digest put out by the Jewish community advances a right-wing agenda.”
Jimmy Carter spoke at UC Berkeley last night. Watch it here.
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May 3rd, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Finkelstein is the man. His scholarship is impeccable and he is a brave spokesman for the rights of the oppressed. They try to portray him as this out of control self-hating Jew, while I find him to be extremely reasonable and intelligent. Just watch one of his videos online. He is a completely decent guy with compelling points. Raul Hilberg, the founder of Holocaust Studies, even said his conclusions were actually conservative concerning his book the Holocaust Industry. He was recently at the Doha Debates which are going to air in a couple of days on the BBC and on their website for anyone who wants to watch. It’s on the Israel lobby. It will certainly be more honest than what you hear on American T.V.
I just happened to turn on my television, which is a rare occurrence, and I noticed that some guy named Pierre Rehov went on about how terrible suicide bombers are and how the Israel-Palestine conflict isn’t about oppression but “impurity.” A position that collapses in seconds when confronted with the facts or the record, especially on the characteristics and timing of the violence. There are brainwashed suicide bombers who carry out awful acts, but he clearly can’t see into its roots like how the U.S. can’t comprehend that it supported a great deal of fundamentalism when it served our interests. Israel helped establish Hamas to counter the PLO which was coming closer to accepting the international consensus for instance! It basically created Hezbollah after its criminal and brutal 1982 invasion and occupation of Lebanon to counter what Avner Yaniv called the PLO’s “peace offensive.” And to top it off, he sounds like N Israeli when forced into a corner when confronted about their confiscations and carrying out of oppression in which they can’t come up with a proposal that doesn’t let Israel keep up its bad behavior so they must claim that there is no hope. Well isn’t that a great proposal, lets make sure we prevent anyone from trying and just keep fighting this battle forever. What cynical crap. Another advocate of a Palestinian final solution. That is the attitude Israel loves to hear.
The essay by Richman is quite good.
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:52 pm
It should be interesting to watch the Doha Debate on “stiffling criticism” when it is posted, probably next week. It will be available here–
http://www.dohadebates.com/output/page1.asp
Ynet reports that Indyk used the example of Carter’s book to demonstrate how open the debate is. I guess he’s proud of the fact that they didn’t actually shoot him.
May 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Matt C. Says: “Finkelstein is the man. His scholarship is impeccable.”
Finkelstein’s “scholarship” isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Reminds me of the hordes of “scholarship” that emanates from the Arab world - link.
May 4th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
I would be happy to read an actual demonstration of the “worthlessness” of the scholarship, but I don’t see what on earth that scholarship has to do with those cartoons.
Be serious, OK?
May 4th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Ynet reports “Majority of Oxford Union students say pro-Israel lobby stifling debate.” Note that while not in the headline, the article makes clear that this was a vote on such debate WITHIN THE USA!
I’m sorry, did I miss something here? UK university students are voting on an issue within the US media/political system? Do they have some special expertise in this area? Or were they just voting on how well Alexander Cockburn and Norman Finkelstein (certainly unbiased purveyors of facts, right?) presented their case?
Of course, this was the same university where students voted overwhelmingly on the eve of WW2 to “under no circumstances fight for King or Country”– so had their viewpoint held, very few of those posting on this list would even be alive today.
Maybe we should have Berkeley undergrads render their considered judgment on whether the UK should take a more aggressive tack against the radical Islamists there.
May 4th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Oh my God! People in a foreign country are actually criticizing the US! How dare they! It’s not like we ever say anything critical of foreign countries! On the contrary, the US is known for strictly minding its own business!
Oh, and by the way Mike, you really don’t know much about Berkeley, do you?
May 4th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
‘ . . . but I don’t see what on earth that scholarship has to do with those cartoons.’
Don’t you understand? This is exactly what Finkelstein is referring to when he speaks of the Holocaust Industry. Show a few pictures like this and then you earn the right to speak offensively about anyone you disagree with. These pictures are a licence to . . .
May 4th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
So did anyone watch the Carter video? I never had thought that I would hear an American president sum up so accurately the problems we have in this world and what some of the potential solutions are. It is beyond criminal that other presidents and political leaders are not talking more about these ENORMOUS issues like global wealth inequality.
As far as the comments regarding Finkelstein, read his books and then make a comment. I don’t want to hear personal attacks when you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Besides, as I said, his scholarship is impeccable. All the outrageous attacks he has received from people like Dershowitz have already been address and all the charges are shown to be complete lies to nobody’s surprise.
May 4th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Bill, you appear to be missing a sense for satire and irony; the fact that JVP decides to quote that article, as in “gee, if Oxford students say it then it MUST be correct” is pretty lame evidence to back up the trumped-up “muzzling” case. And the Berkeley reference was, of course, totally tongue-in-cheek, as most Berkeley students wouldn’t see radical Islam as a threat until the campus is placed under Sharia law (and maybe not even then?).
May 5th, 2007 at 1:33 am
But then, it’s not Sharia law that is the problem, it’s just theocracy in general that scares me wherever it threatens to blossom.
And to those who want to dismiss Finkelstein so lightly, perhaps you will be more convincing after you provide a valid refutation of the points made by Frank J. Menetrez at the link at the top of this thread.
May 5th, 2007 at 2:25 am
Mike,
Considering the the Oxford Union vote was given one line in the original post, a news and link roundup, I don’t think JVP was actually claiming it to be important evidence.
May 5th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
Uh, yeah, Mike, you obviously did miss something. It’s called the internet and on it, people even as far away as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland can follow the American media right from their dorm. And then there’s CNN and FoxNews. Even people outside the US of A can point their satellite dish toward those beams and watch hour after hour of US coverage on many topics. I was in Taipei for 2 weeks and in the evening watched everything you saw on CNN and FoxNews.
And these are university students, some of whom perhaps take studies in American policy and such. Unlike most Americans, people in these foreign countries often follow current events around the globe. It’s called sophistication.
May 6th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Matt, I watched the Carter video. He does what he always does: present partial information so as to demonize Israel. You would think that if only Israel left the West Bank everything would be fine. Alas, Israel’s abandonment of South Lebanon, and then Gaza, has taught us what will really happen if Israel were to leave West Bank I(alas!). Carter completely ignores this. Totally. So does JVP, by the way, to judge by the speakers at the recent conference. Both JVP and Carter present information very selectively for the purpose of demonizing Israel. There is nothing about “peace” in their efforts at all.
May 7th, 2007 at 1:31 am
[…] A hat tip to Muzzlewatch for turning me on to this invaluable new addition to the progressive Mideast landscape. Nathan Guttman at The Forward provides some background to the Bulletin portion of the new project: The Center for American Progress is set to launch the Middle East Bulletin, which will be arriving in subscribers’ inboxes beginning next week. It aims to take on Daily Alert, published by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations and prepared by a right-wing think tank in Israel. […]
May 7th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Martin, you are selective and naive, in my opinion. Look at how you talk about Lebanon. Just start history where it is convenient and you will always be able to support your views but the fact of the matter is that Israel provoked (specifics in Fateful Triangle) attacks from Lebanon and then invaded and killed about 17,000 people and continued a brutal occupation in which the Southern Lebanese peoples finally rose up and kicked Israel out. We don’t have to mention Israels original plans concerning Lebanon.
It really isn’t about security concerning the West Bank. I’m sorry that you will find this hard to believe but it’s the absolute truth. It’s just like the wall that they built which just so happens to absorb about 10% of the West Bank. I can’t reason with people like yourself because you refuse to be honest. It is no different than claiming the U.S. is in Iraq to spread democracy as if the U.S. would have instead invaded a country who’s major export was pickles. It’s cynical farce. The sooner you face it the better off you’re going to be.
They made Gaza a prison for heavens sake. Also, to think that Israel (a nuclear power with powerful military) faces the threat of destruction from the Palestinians is like saying the U.S. faces destruction from Nicaragua which Finkelstein jokingly said, for instance, has to its credit two escalators and one elevator. The claim is ridiculous.
Israel has jet fighters and and tons of bombs supplied by the U.S. including deadly cluster bombs which they recently littered Southern Lebanon with. Not to mention, ISREAL escalated the recent conflict with Lebanon. Let me ask you, when did the rockets started flying? What prisoners did Hezbollah want? Who had many more casualties?
What were the B’Tselem numbers for 2006 again?
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20061228.asp
Since Finkelstein is talked about in the post, watch some of these videos because I know people don’t read books anymore:
The single existing example of what a real, reasonable debate is like:
http://www.democracynow.org/index.pl?issue=20060214
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=140
Finkelstein v. Blitzer
http://normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=20
The Current Crisis in the Middle East
http://mitworld.mit.edu/play/401/
Debate with Alan Dershowitz
http://iopforum.harvard.edu:8080/ramgen/fr112905israel.rm
On Recent Lebanon Conflict
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKq38COoTG8
Another (Galloway)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wdwk1dp-uU&mode=related&search=
See more here:
http://normanfinkelstein.com/content.php?pg=19
May 7th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
“But then, it’s not Sharia law that is the problem, it’s just theocracy in general that scares me wherever it threatens to blossom.”
you should be a little more discriminating. jewish religious law does not kill women for showing their face in public.
May 7th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
calling finky’s scholarship impeccable is like saying that steven hawking’s grammar is good. “the holocaust industry” has nothing to do with scholarship, it is not a research paper, it was not peer reviewed, it’s not based on research of any kind. it’s one man’s opinions, and from his other work, he has a very biased agenda and point to make.
but i’ll bet you think oliver stone’s movies are good history too.
May 7th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
by the way, i’ve heard that JVP is a front organization for the ISM, that the ISM decided to create fake jewish organizations to fool people into thinking that american jews don’t support israel, which of course we do. i heard that JVP is a arab group that has jewish members only peripherally.
here’s some info:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11010
any comments?
May 7th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
I recall Arafat saying after his meetings with the North Viet Namese that;
“The first thing that we need to do is to divide the Jewish people into two camps psychologically”.
Shortly thereafter, we suddenly saw Women in Black, Peace Now, Jewish Voice for Peace ETC. It does make one wonder.
May 7th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
shame to see (some) liberals in the bay area falling for it.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
So what is this? Suddenly Jews are supposed to agree with each other. Disagreement within the Jewish community is a sinister plot perpetrated by Arafat.
” real voice for peace Says:
May 7th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
by the way, i’ve heard that JVP is a front organization for the ISM, that the ISM decided to create fake jewish organizations to fool people into thinking that american jews don’t support israel, which of course we do. i heard that JVP is a arab group that has jewish members only peripherally.
here’s some info:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11010
any comments?’
You’ve heard? from whom? Is it an ISM front or an Arab group? How shocking is it that it could just perhaps actually be a Jewish group and that Jews are not a bunch of sheep after all.
On the frontpagemag article:
So some idiots are talking crap. Why does this have to be pointed out everytime someone tries to discuss what the Israeli state is doing. This means that you can never discuss an injustice because someone can point to someone else’s injustice. Sounds childish and/or self-serving to me.
I think Lee Kaplan is a hate-monger and hardly an example of objective journalism or scholarship for that matter.
“a real voice for peace Says:
May 7th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
calling finky’s scholarship impeccable is like saying that steven hawking’s grammar is good. “the holocaust industry” has nothing to do with scholarship, it is not a research paper, it was not peer reviewed, it’s not based on research of any kind. it’s one man’s opinions, and from his other work, he has a very biased agenda and point to make.
but i’ll bet you think oliver stone’s movies are good history too.”
There was no claim to the holocaust industry being scholarship. However, he is a respected scholar and if you claim that he is not, then explain why. Alternatively, refute what Frank J. Menetrez is saying at the link at the very tiop of this thread.
Never seen oliver stone’s movies, but I highly recommend the extremely courageous John Pilger’s documentaries.
May 7th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
a real voice for peace Says:
May 7th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
by the way, i’ve heard that JVP is a front organization for the ISM, that the ISM decided to create fake jewish organizations
That would have been kind of hard for the ISM to do, considering JVP was founded in 1996, years before the ISM came into existence. As for JVP being an Arab group, we do have some Mizrachi members; perhaps that’s what you meant?
Believe it or not, “Real Voice,” not all Jews think alike! Some of us have different opinions! Imagine that! Jews! Different opinions! Unprecedented! Unbelievable!
May 7th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
For those interested in the Oxford Union/Doha Debate on the tactics of the Israel lobby, it’s been posted here–
http://www.sendspace.com/file/27xe8o
It’s a good size download, so you might need to wait a few more days and view it here–
http://clients.mediaondemand.net/thedohadebates/
May 7th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Clearly, this is the understandable impresion that JVP has left on others. Perhaps its the result of standing next to Jihadis screaming “Itbach al Yahud” in front of the Israeli Consulate and that sort of thing. Or perhaps JVP chose to front or raise money for ISM afterwards, its not an important distinction.
By the way, on what authority is Lee Kaplan a “hate monger” or is that another of those phrases used to muzzle differing opinions?
May 7th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
“a real voice for peace” Says:
“calling finky’s scholarship impeccable is like saying that steven hawking’s grammar is good. “the holocaust industry” has nothing to do with scholarship, it is not a research paper, it was not peer reviewed, it’s not based on research of any kind. it’s one man’s opinions, and from his other work, he has a very biased agenda and point to make.”
Well your opinion is just one mans opinion and certainly not a notable one. So lets hear is what the leading scholar on the Holocaust said about the first addition of the book which was expanded with much more research in the second addition:
“When I read Finkelstein’s book, The Holocaust Industry, at the time of its appearance, I was in the middle of my own investigations of these matters, and I came to the conclusion that he was on the right track. I refer now to the part of the book that deals with the claims against the Swiss banks, and the other claims pertaining to forced labor. I would now say in retrospect that he was actually conservative, moderate and that his conclusions are trustworthy. He is a well-trained political scientist, has the ability to do the research, did it carefully, and has come up with the right results. I am by no means the only one who, in the coming months or years, will totally agree with Finkelstein’s breakthrough.”
By the way, the book is very well footnoted but I ham sure you don’t have a clue what you are talking about because you haven’t read it.
Also, I don’t believe a word of Oliver Stone movies. I’m not a conspiracy nut. That’s one of the reasons why I can’t believe all of the claims made against the Swiss banks.
May 7th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
lawrence says:
“There was no claim to the holocaust industry being scholarship. However, he is a respected scholar and if you claim that he is not, then explain why.”
lol. he’s a scholar, but his latest book is not scholarship? eh? whatever, as long as you admit his books are not scholarly books. he’s got an opinion. i’m sure he’s got footnotes, too. so did mein kampf. that doesn’t make it factual.
and i do believe that there was an organization called jvp since 96, if you say so. however, we’ve only this year started to hear from them. they’ve only this year come up with the funding to make themselves known. they’ve only got the funding since their alliances with ISM and other anti-jewish groups. you do the math.
and of course, duh, not all jews have the same opinions. it is a poor attempt at MUZZING to play that card. since israel has a free press and free speech (as opposed to all the arab governments), those opinions are often expressed. that’s not what i’m talking about, and to attempt to reduce it to that is pure muzzling. blog about that one.
oh and i don’t know mr. Menetrez or care much about his opinion, but dershowitz and finky can work out their arguments on their own. it’s funny that dershowitz writes a book and then finkestein has to write a reactionary book and give it a title that mocks dershowitz’s book. you’d think finkelstein would have his own ideas. then again, his ideas turned into the holocaust industry, which you’ve already admitted is a hack with no scholarly content.
in any case, no one is being muzzled, so why is this blog so interested in it?
May 7th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
According to R, JVP gives money to the ISM.
According to Lawrence JVP only GETS money because we’re allied with the ISM.
The least you guys could do is keep your lies straight.
The truth is that JVP gets donations from Jews, yes Jews, who support human rights, internatioanl law and and a peaceful solution to the Middle East conflict.
May 8th, 2007 at 1:01 am
In the spirit of Roundup, here’s a miscellaneous item on the David Project:
“This week, Jessica Masse, interfaith coordinator of the Islamic Society of Boston, publicly released recent discovery materials obtained as part of the ISB’s conspiracy lawsuit, which reveal that an Israel advocacy organization, which specializes in creating malicious anti-Arab, anti-African and Islamophobic propaganda, met with real estate investors, attorneys, and Republican activists at their office at 210 South Street in Boston to discuss an action plan “to present a legal challenge” to the Roxbury Mosque project.”"
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_24497.shtml
Don’t know what to file this one under — “the lobby” or just racist hatred.
May 8th, 2007 at 10:53 am
this is for the dual allegience crowd….
http://amconmag.com/2007/2007_05_07/article.html
AIPAC on Trial
The lobby argues that good Americans spy for Israel.
by Justin Raimondo
Is there a First Amendment right to engage in espionage? Dorothy Rabinowitz seems to think so. Describing the actions of Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman, two former top officials of AIPAC, the premier Israel lobbying group, who passed purloined intelligence to Israeli government officials, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist characterized them as “activities that go on every day in Washington, and that are clearly protected under the First Amendment.” If what Rabinowitz says is true—if passing classified information to foreign officials is routine in the nation’s capital—then we are all in big trouble.
On Aug. 4, 2005, Rosen, Weissman, and Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin were indicted by a federal grand jury and charged with violating provisions of the Espionage Act that forbid divulging national defense information to persons not authorized to receive it.
May 8th, 2007 at 11:38 am
I think that the David Project would take issue with being charecterized as an”organization, which specializes in creating malicious anti-Arab, anti-African and Islamophobic propaganda.” That sounds like more hyperbole designed to denigrate and muzzle opinions with which one disagrees. “Islamophobia” seems to be thrown arround as another of those phrases innappropriately used to stifle discussion.
May 8th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Best thing to do, R, is to read the emails of the organization and make up your own mind.
http://members.aol.com/tprovoni/DavidProject/DPEmailsAttackTheMosque1.pdf
May 8th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
I assume that this is the line that you find objectionable;
“to defeat the ideological assault on Israel that is taking place on campuses, in high schools, in churches and in the general community.”
May 8th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
has anyone seen this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_hamas_mickey_mouse_1
ouch? anyone want to revisit which side they are supporting?
May 9th, 2007 at 11:15 am
These people start to loose their power when they loose their cause. Their cause is ridding the occupation. Israel helped start Hamas, so don’t try to play games. By the way, it is a perfect example of how MEMRI will make major mistranslations.
Hamas:
http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r
MEMRI NAZIS
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=605
Look, I don’t support the crap that they feed their kids and everyone else, but you are being outright dishonest when you try to claim that the violence only exists due to the fundamentalism and propaganda. The occupation and colonization of their land is what started this. This stuff grows out of the oppression, humiliation, and frustration inherent in the situation. Blaming the victims gets nowhere.
I’m telling you that this is what Israel wants at some level. It loves to see this stuff because it helps justify what it is doing which is illegal and wrong at an even worse level. You know, I’m not stupid. I see how things are spun both ways.
Remember the five dancing Israelis on 9-11? We know some of them were Mossad and such, but I am not really convinced that they were doing anything out of the ordinary as Israel has tons of “Art Students” in our country, but it’s interesting that when questioned one of them responded that 9-11 would be “good for Israel,” and said that “the Palestinians were the problem.” That was how they framed that awful tragedy which was outside anything Israel ever experienced (around 3,000 people killed at one time). It just shows the outrageously opportunistic mindset they have.
By the way, the T.V. was in full Jihad mode last night from the above report on CNN to “Not Without My Daughter” to talk about the Holocaust to everyone being suspect in regard to “homegrown terrorism”…
What I didn’t see or don’t see is anyone making a good suggestion on how to stop what they continue to just complain about. That goes for everybody. No one seems actually serious about resolving problems but love to demonize the other side. Most people seem to be emotional dimwits with no understanding of history or seeing anything other than violence as a means to “communicate.” I am an atheist who is not a fan of religion for the most part, but I come out seeing that in our culture it is not even necessary to explicitly suggest the need for violence to solve our problems or “secure our interests” as how Rice recently phrased it talking about our need to be in Iraq, but just hint at something and we all start marching.
Man do people suck.
May 9th, 2007 at 11:33 am
Just to make another thing clear, I clarify Israel’s record to people because I’m an American and the Israel side of the story is the most prominent here and America funds Israel’s illegal activities. If I was in the Arab or Muslim world and in places where the culture is violent or repressive, then I would try to speak out against it as much as I could even if it was dangerous to do so. My position comes from a true hatred of hypocrisy. It is about time we start to be honest about our own actions.
Imagine if everyone did that.
May 9th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Amen to that, Matt!
May 9th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
hi matt,
thanks for your response.
“Israel helped start Hamas”
yes, yes, and the US helped start the taliban, etc. i agree with that criticism and hate it when we support despots because they temporarily oppose an enemy. at the time, fatah was the only choice and arafat was calling for the destruction of israel. so israel wanted the palestinian people to have a choice. of course it backfired.
that doesn’t mean that hamas is now immune from criticism however.
“you are being outright dishonest when you try to claim that the violence only exists due to the fundamentalism and propaganda. ”
i never remotely claimed that that propaganda is the sole cause of violence. i just wanted to point out to those who think it’s all israel’s fault that the palestinians really do brainwash their kids into hating israel and jews and becoming suicide bombers. you’ve seen the pictures of the kids dressed up in fake bomb belts too.
“Blaming the victims gets nowhere.”
that’s the thing, if you portray the palestinians as victims and israelis as the criminals, you are the one being dishonest. at the very least it is a 2 way street and both sides have things to work on.
“I’m telling you that this is what Israel wants at some level. ”
uh, talk about blaming the victim! and when a woman gets raped she must have been asking for it? israel wants suicide bombers? don’t be absurd.
“Remember the five dancing Israelis on 9-11?”
are you freaking kidding me? THAT IS A MYTH. it never happened.
the palestinians, however, did celebrate on that day:
snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp
ridiculous. where did you get your propaganda? obviously you have a serious problem with israel and jews, and that is utterly transparent.
“My position comes from a true hatred of hypocrisy.”
yes, self-hatred can be a terrible thing.
May 9th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
I have found that those uncomfortable with the works of Dr. Norman Finkelstein regularly use the tactics of brownshirts. If the same abuse was heaped on Jews that weren’t conveniently labeled “self-hating”, the outcry would be hard to miss, and rightfully so.
Regarding allegations of Hamas ‘Mickey Mouse’, I wonder if he urges children to write messages on artillery shells fired on civilian populations? The tactics of asymetrical warfare are by no means excusable in every case, but international law allows for armed resistance against aggressors and occupying forces.
Living under apartheid conditions is bound to breed serious animosities. Israelis polled have similar attitudes towards Arabs/Muslims and most likely pass these on to offspring such as when the children of illegal settlers regularly abuse Palestinian women in front of IOF forces.
May 9th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Matt c. Your post reeks of hypocracy. Israel’s “illegal activities”? What might those be and what is your opinion based on?
In fact, the US DOES fund an astounding part of the “Arab or Muslim world and in places where the culture is violent or repressive” as well, and yet you seem not to know anything about that. Rather revealing tunnel vision.
May 9th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
muzzling in michigan:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6876.shtml
May 9th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
it wasn’t muzzling, they canceled the talk because it was one sided, and the school didn’t have a chance to teach any background or context.
and the fact that the ISM was sponsoring it belies any claim of peacefulness. the ISM is not for peace, they freely admit that.
if you want to give a talk like that, rent out a hall in a community center or in one of the many arab organizations and groups in the detroit area. you might be brainwashing kids in gaza with mickey mouse calling for the killing of jews, but that won’t fly here.
May 9th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
real voice for peace: even when context, or “the other side” is provided, it does not appear to be enough for some:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2007/05/09/under_pressure_new_rep_cancels_play?mode=PF
May 9th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
lol. the rachel corrie play is not “context”, it’s not history, it’s not even good theater.
but that sounds like one person not giving permission for private letters to be read in a double feature with the rachel corrie play. maybe not my choice, but within his rights.
look, if you want to have a debate or public speech, set it up. so far these are all backhanded propaganda moves.
May 9th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
ok, real voice, Mohammed Khatib is from Bi’lin in the West Bank. What sort of context would you like people to hear when they go to his speech.
May 9th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Real Voice, I get so tired cleaning up after you. The so-called Dancing Israelis is certainly not a myth, in any of its many definitions. Ha’aretz reports it so: http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/09/WTC.html”
The Staged Celebrating Palestinians: “German reporters of the prestigious ‘Panorama’ TV magazine investigated how the scenes were shot. What they found out was amazing. On German TV they aired, supposedly for the first time, parts of the entire 4-minute footage not previously shown.
“It became clear that a person was animating a couple of children to cheer in front of the camera. The woman cheering was offered a candy to act cheerful. She later said she was shocked that her pictures were shown in the context of the terrorist attacks. She had no idea what they were for. A total view of the scene shows a street largely full of at best a pathetiic people doing business as usual. Only a handful of people standing in front of the camera are celebrating.” http://www.crescentlife.com/heal%20the%20world/celebrating_palestinians.htm
Geez, do your homework.
May 9th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
“lol. the rachel corrie play is not “context”, it’s not history, it’s not even good theater.”
Again, the expert on everything. Poof! Now he’s a theatre critic.
May 9th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
http://www.ilanpappe.org/News/The%20Myth%20of%20Jewish%20Refugees%20from%20Arab%20Land.html
May 10th, 2007 at 9:20 am
a real voice for peace Says:
“it wasn’t muzzling, they canceled the talk because it was one sided, and the school didn’t have a chance to teach any background or context.”
RVFP, the article claims that this is a school for gifted students. While I personally believe that every student should be able to access the opportunities offered to those classified as gifted, I would think that this group especially would be capable of further research to provide themselves with some “context.” I think maybe you give too little credit to kids - and to their teachers.
It’s bad enough when thoughtful adults who dissent are marginalized and muzzled, but attempting to censor what children are allowed to hear and learn is beneath contempt.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:20 am
The play “My Name Is Rachel Corrie” was a big commerical and artistic success in London, where it had two sold-out runs and won a number of awards. It’s only here that it was deemed to require “context.”
May 10th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Wednesday, May 9th, 2007
“It Takes an Enormous Amount of Courage to Speak the Truth When No One Else is Out There” — World-Renowned Holocaust, Israel Scholars Defend DePaul Professor Norman Finkelstein as He Fights for Tenure
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/09/1514221
May 10th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Interesting article excpet for a couple of things. Avi Shlaim is NOT a world renowned Holocaust scholar” he’s a prominent “post-Zionist New Historian” in league with Illan Pappe etc. Raul Hilberg seems to have issues with the economics issues of the Holocaust and so has an interest in that aspect of Finkelstein’s theories. Its rather notable that the most prominent of the “New Histornians”,Benny Morris, was criticized by Finkelstein. It seems like “cherry picking” of academics.
May 10th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
the play got good reviews?
like this one?
http://theater2.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/theater/reviews/31rach.html
which states that “the work remains an impassioned eulogy that isn’t quite the same thing as a play”
or this one: http://theater2.nytimes.com/2006/10/16/theater/reviews/16rach.html
“It is all the more surprising, then, to discover that for long stretches “Rachel Corrie” feels dramatically flat, even listless.”
or this one:
http://www.curtainup.com/mynameisrachelcorrie.html
“Unfortunately, I was less impressed with its artfulness and and dramatic potency than my British colleagues, both excellent and smart writers.”
i’m not a critic, but it looks like you guys don’t even know how to find out what the critics really did say.
May 10th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Excellent DemocracyNow! interview.
“RAUL HILBERG: And it was clear to me already years ago that some campaigns were launched — from what sector, I didn’t know — to remove him from the academic world.”
May 10th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
R., Avi Shlaim addressed Prof. Finkelstein’s work on the history of Zionism and Raul Hilberg spoke to Prof. Finkelstein’s work on the holocaust and the “holocaust industry.”
Individuals who write in academic journals can and do cite others whose thoughts mesh with their own, but to be fair they need to mention those who think differently, to present the opposing point of view fairly, and then to state their own reasons for disagreeing. If Prof. Finkelstein criticizes Benny Morris, he’s doing what academics do.
Both Avi Shlaim and Raul Hilberg did mention Prof. Finkelstein’s “polemic” writing style, and I personally agree with them. Still, his style does keep average readers interested and if, as Raul Hilberg claims, there was an effort to remove him from the academic world, I can hardly fault Professor Finkelstein on style. I’d be a little polemical about that myself!
May 18th, 2007 at 8:34 am
April Rosenblum’s pamphlet is a step in the right direction. It received some favorable comments as well as some criticism at Engage.
http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=977#
Alan Cheney, when you wrote you had decisive proof about the Israelis dancing I had to follow your link to check it out. The link is dead:
“Not Found
The requested URL /online/01/09/WTC.html” was not found on this server.
Apache/1.3.37 Server at http://www.fpp.co.uk Port 80″
I went to the source of the link:
http://www.fpp.co.uk
which is either David Irving’s website, or a site put up by one of his minions.
“Welcome to Focal Point
Publishers of works of Real History
by David Irving and other authors”
Yes, David Irving the Holocaust denier.
Alan, provide a link directly to Haaretz or another reputable source. I found nothing liking Haaretz to this story but plenty of conspiracy theory websites.
May 18th, 2007 at 10:37 am
WEVS1,
Try it again without the ” sign at the end: http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/09/WTC.html
I just accessed it.
Regarding your ad hominem, the article is a reprint of a Ha’aretz article. If you understand how blogs work - and I think you probably do - articles are picked up from many so-called ‘reputable’ news sources as well as other sites and re-posted/attributed for a blog’s readers. I think you know that but are employing the ad hominem fallacy for some less-than-honest reason.
Regarding Irving or anyone else being a Holocaust denier, I’ve yet to get a good answer for my challenge to show me evidence of one person who denies the Shoah as a historical reality, using of course the acceptable definition of ‘deny’ and not some made-up hyperbolic usage. Making up emotionally charged terms and using logical fallacies to argue your point is lazy and dishonest. It may work on FoxNews but no one with an ounce of education and critical thinking skills appreciates it.
May 18th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
http://www.wymaninstitute.org/articles/2004-denialreport.php#middleeast
“In an interview on New York City radio station WSNR on February 16, 2004, Hutton Gibson, father of actor and film director Mel Gibson, reiterated his previous statements denying the Holocaust. “It’s all–maybe not all–fiction, but most of it is,” Gibson said of the Nazi genocide. “Do you know what it takes to get rid of a dead body? To cremate it? It takes a liter of petrol and twenty minutes. Now, six million of them? They did not have the gas to do it. That’s why they lost the war.” Gibson said Jews “claimed that there were 6.2 million [Jews] in Poland before the war, and they claimed that after the war there were 200,000–therefore he [Hitler] must have killed six million of them.” Gibson claimed that what actually happened to the Jews of Poland is that they “simply got up and left. They were all over the Bronx and Brooklyn and Sydney, Australia, and Los Angeles.”
“Holocaust-denier Mohammed Salmawy appeared at this year’s Frankfurt Book Fair, which ended on October 10, 2004. Salmawy, editor of the French Arabic-language newspaper Al Ahram Hebdo, delivered a message of greeting from author Nagib Mahfus, who was unable to attend. Salmawy has written: “There are no findings to indicate the existence of mass graves, because the size of the ovens makes it impossible for many Jews to have been killed there. According to the lists presented by the Soviets to the Germans, no more than 70,000 Jews were registered as having been at Auschwitz.”
‘A program on Egypt’s Al-Mihwar Television on August 28, 2004, featured a panel discussion about the controversy, with former Al-Liwaa Al-Islami editor Muhammad Al-Zurqani, columnist Abd Al-Qader Yassin, Dr. Ahmad. During the discussion, Ahmad said that the Holocaust “was, at the very least, falsified or exaggerated,” and program host Sayyd Ali agreed that “its truth is in doubt.” Al-Zurqani, joining the discussion by telephone, said “I agree with what Dr. Rif’at Sayyed Ahmad wrote … We were educated from childhood that the Holocaust is a big lie.”
Yassin, identified as a “Palestinian politician,” said that “there is doubt as to the truth of this story [of the Holocaust],” and referred to the Ph.D. dissertation–later published as a book–by former Palestinian Authority prime minister Mahmoud Abbas, denying the Holocaust.’
Controversy continued over a program broadcast in May 1998 on a Muslim radio station, Radio 786, in Cape Town, South Africa. On the program, Yacoub Zaki of the London-based Muslim Institute said that one million, not six million Jews, had died in Europe during World War II, and they were not murdered by had died of diseases.
May 19th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
I cannot find a link to Haaretz for this article. I do not take David Irving’s claims at face value. I was able to locate the source as the “Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,” which takes a decidedly anti-Israel position.
If you actually have a link to Haaretz, I’m very interested. There are tons of links from websites that take perspectives similar to Irving’s like David Duke’s site, jewwatch, freemasonrywatch and stormfront but I was not able to find anything at all when I searched Haaretz. Do you think they purged the article?
I even searched Google for the article (“Yossi Melman + haaretz”) and looked at the first 4 or 5 pages and it wasn’t there. You’d think an article that was this popular would show up on the first page. Or is that the ZOG at work?
“Regarding Irving or anyone else being a Holocaust denier, I’ve yet to get a good answer for my challenge to show me evidence of one person who denies the Shoah as a historical reality, using of course the acceptable definition of ‘deny’ and not some made-up hyperbolic usage.”
So you are not a holocaust denier, you are a holocaust denier, denier. A rare breed indeed! I’ve only come across one other in my life, on Indymedia. “Nobody actually denies the holocaust,” they claimed. Then I provided a list of quotes with links to reputable sources and they had nothing more to say.
Anyway, if you ever find an actual link to Haaretz I’d love to see it…
May 20th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Don’t you see guys. They have now successfully changed the subject. Now we are talking about Holocaust denial. Don’t pay attention to it. Get them on the issues that are relevant.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:04 am
alan, we’ve given you several examples. here’s another.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel/
you respond by saying you don’t trust cnn, or reuters, or al jazeera, or any other news organization. then you play semantics and try to redefine the word ‘deny.
Ahmadinejad called it a ‘myth’. that’s denial. you just make yourself look foolish when you claim otherwise.
May 23rd, 2007 at 6:04 pm
I googled the first sentence in the article and this came up second: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75266&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y