Censorship and free speech at San Francisco and San Jose State Universities
Posted on March 22 2007 by Cecilie Surasky under Educational Institutions.San Francisco State University students did the right thing for free speech on Friday when they decided against sanctioning the campus Republican club for stepping on homemade Hamas and Hezbollah flags late last year.
In Flag-Stomping Rabble Rousers Found Not Guilty, SFSU’s student paper reports:
The Student Organization Hearing Panel, or SOHP, unanimously ruled Friday that there were no grounds to punish the club for “inciting violence and of actions of incivility” for its members’ actions during an anti-terrorism rally Oct. 17, 2006.
Also, Associated Students Inc. abrubtly rescinded their Nov. 15, 2006 resolution condemming the College GOPs by unanimous vote last Wednesday. Though ASI President Maire’ Fowler was originally a strong proponent of condemning the GOPs, she was not present for the vote.
Meanwhile, it remains to be seen if SFSU’s president Corrigan will do the right thing and let students go ahead with the Palestinian Edward Said mural. The National Lawyer’s Guild’s Carlos Villareal writes in Pres. Unfairly Censors Palestinian Students’ Views :
Our position is that the denial of the Palestinian mural is content-based censorship and appears to be an attempt to silence a particular political viewpoint, We fear that this mural is being singled out because of the ethnic group it represents, and that students’ due process rights have been violated. This would appear to be State Action in violation of the students’ constitutional rights and thus actionable under 42 US Code §1983.
Finally, a big controversy over censorship at San Jose State University was averted this week by students and school administrators.
SJSU is holding its 4th annual “Tunnel of Oppression” which “aims to educate and expose students to issues such as racism and genocide by surrounding them with thought provoking images, words and ideas.”
The student newspaper described last year’s tunnel this way:
Each room in the Tunnel of Oppression portrays a different form of oppression or diversity, such as anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, mixed racial heritage and interracial dating, disabilities, classism, the American dream and the spread of HIV.
An urgent letter about attempted censorship from Sarah Morris with Students for Change was widely circulated early this week. The group had been selected, by application, to create a room in the tunnel on the Occupied Territories. In response to complaints:
we have been told that unless we compromise our room we cannot participate. We are not being allowed to present the Israeli occupation from a Palestinian perspective unless we present how Israel suffers as well. Our argument is that this room focuses on the oppression that is occurring within the occupied territories but the university maintains that this going to make Israeli/Jewish students feel persecuted. I further argue that, when dealing with oppression, you are always going to have someone who says there is “another side” and if this were to stop this room, it should then stop the entire event.
Later, Sarah sent a message thanking supporters and saying that “the outcome of the meeting with adminstrators and faculty is that we all agreed that the room should be presented as planned.”
March 22nd, 2007 at 2:48 pm
the whole reason why israel needs to control the land is that the leaders of the people living on it have declared war on israel. you can’t compare that to any actual victim of oppression; in fact, such a comparison is nothing but disrespectful to tibetans and all the other people that are truly oppressed and are peaceful peoples.
it’s like committing murder and then whining about how serving a life sentence is victimizing you.
March 22nd, 2007 at 3:32 pm
yehudi, to this day jews are collecting money from countries where bank accounts were taken over during the ww2, to this day they are making claims on property stolen from their owners during ww2, why cant the palestinians be able to go back to the land from which they were driven by the terrorist haggana or ergun or whatever name the zionist terrorists gave themselves. why can one group make those claims and the other group be denied from making that same claim.
your scales are unbalanced in favor of your people,
March 22nd, 2007 at 3:47 pm
John, you’ve got to read something other than Illan Pappe and Electronic Intifada. It seems tobe coloring your scant understanding of the history involved here. Its a fantasy that the entirety of the Arabs that left pre-state Israel left because “they were driven out” by the rag tag, poorly equipped Haganah. Remember that the combined armies of five Arab nations invaded when Israel declared independence. Its not as if the Arabs were defenseless. The Jordanian army was lead by a British Officer, John Glubb. The Arab leadersinstructed their people to leave so that they could return with the victorious Arab armies and take the Jews land as well as their own. Beyond that, how many of the Arabs were non-land owning tenant farmers? Jews with bank accounts and insurance police is stolen by the Nazis were required to PRROVE and document their claims. Buying an old key in a flea market and holding it up for a reporter is not proving a claim to a piece of real estate. Its apples and oranges.
March 22nd, 2007 at 3:53 pm
john doe, it is ridiculous to compare the holocaust with what is happening in the west bank. to do so removes any shred of credibility about anything you might say.
and when do the palestinians get their millions of dollars back from arafat’s wife in france and the rest of the millions that were stolen by their leaders? oh, i see, you don’t care about that.
you want a right of return for palestinians, but you ignore the fact that just as many jews were displaced from arab countries during the same period, 48-52. why do you not call for a corresponding jewish right of return?
we’re both unbalanced, don’t you think. i’m unbalanced in favor of the democratic country that has full civil rights for all citizens regardless of religion, race or sexual orientation. you’re unbalanced in favor of the group that sends in suicide bombers, that wants to destroy a UN member country, that refuses to sign peace treaties.
March 22nd, 2007 at 7:52 pm
I don’t think that even Ilan Pappe believes that all the Arabs who left Israel in the War of Independance were forced out. I must admit that I have not yet subjected myself to read Pappe’s fiction disguised as history, but reviews have indicated even Pappe, who openly admits to lying and who has been caught fabricating his “findings” conforms his “historical writings” to the standard understanding that Arabs left due to a combination of being told to leave, leaving voluntarily so as not to live under Jewish rule, and finally, some were forced out by Jewish militias.
Where Pappe differs from other historians such as Benny Morris, is that he denies that Israel does not have the right to exist, regardless of the circumstances of its founding.
March 22nd, 2007 at 10:25 pm
john doe, it is ridiculous to compare the holocaust with what is happening in the west bank. to do so removes any shred of credibility about anything you might say.
pathetic apologist as the corruption of the zionist continnues to pile up….
sure it does yehudi….the populations went from apprx 1 mill down to 250,000…500 plus villages destroyed, but they havent got the same rights as the poor jews who were robbed of their wealth and property in europe….and why not….how about the new scandal over at the adl with bronfman firing israel singer,
Night of the Long Knives
Editor’s note: The three key figures in the shakedown of Swiss banks and European governments were Israel Singer, Burt Neuborne and Alan Hevesi. It has now been publicly acknowledged that all three are wretched crooks. One can’t help but wonder, however, what happened to the TWENTY BILLION DOLLARS that, according to Edgar Bronfman, the World Jewish Congress extracted in the great Holocaust compensation racket. Simon Wiesenthal stated that about 10,000 Jewish survivors of the concentration camps, labor camps and ghettos were still alive in the year 2000. Dividing 10,000 into $20,000,000,000 = $2,000,000. Yet, most actual survivors report receiving either a pittance or nothing at all. On another sobering note, as pro bono Holocaust huckster Burt Neuborne fights in court to get his fair share of the Holocaust booty (well, Jesus, didn’t he suffer?), his advocate is NYU professor Sam Issacharoff. Sam is my old Trotskyist sparring partner from college days. Back then everyone to the right of Mr. Permanent Revolution (he went on to head up the Sparticist Youth League) was a “petty-bourgeois” of one stripe or another. Now he’s grazing in greener pastures, defending Holocaust hucksters. Both my late parents survived the death camps, while every member of their respective families on both sides was exterminated. They never received one cent of the Holocaust compensation monies collected by American Jewish organizations beginning in the early 1950s. But Burt Neuborne will get several million dollars. And now Sam will get a cut of Burt’s cut. Who could have imagined back in college that Sam the Trot would one day be capitalizing (!) on my late parents’ horrific suffering.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=81
March 22nd, 2007 at 10:45 pm
how the heck can you guys apologize for the bs that goes on in the name of the holocaust… do you guys really think it matters that im not jewish to make me feel repulsed by the farse that is being foisted on all of our collective intellects by these thieves…what strikes me most is how you defenders show yourselves to be devoid of a conscience by your blind defenses for the farse being pulled off in the name of decency and equity for a downtrodden people who genuinely suffered the hell of ww2 attrocities. Are your conscienses that calloused or muzzled by your intellects that you cant distinguish between honor and dishonor.
March 22nd, 2007 at 10:53 pm
how the heck can you guys apologize for the bs that goes on in the name of the holocaust… do you guys really think it matters that i need to be jewish to make me feel repulsed by the farse that is being foisted on all of our collective intellects by these thieves…what strikes me most is how you defenders show yourselves to be devoid of a conscience by your ready defenses for the farse being pulled off in the name of decency and equity for a downtrodden people who genuinely suffered the hell of ww2 attrocities. Are your conscienses that calloused or muzzled by your intellects that you cant distinguish between honor and dishonor.
Advocatus diaboli
the guilty need lawyers, you defenders are assured employment.
March 22nd, 2007 at 11:48 pm
While I fully agree with the thrust of this article that Foxman has far outlasted his time & whatever usefulness he might ever have had (& noted this in the blog post I wrote about Traub’s NYT Magazine profile linked to this comment), I really uncomfortable with the left, right & center attack on him. Some of the things he’s criticized for in this article I absolutely agree with. Gibson SHOULD HAVE BEEN vilified for Passion of Christ. Prager should have been vilified for attacking Ellison, etc. etc. Not EVERYTHING Foxman does is wrong or bad.
I esp. hated this sentence:
Mort Klein & Dennis Prager certainly ARE bigots.
March 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 am
I will simply respond to one of john doe’s disgusting screeds, and that is the attempt to libel Burt Neuborne. As it happens, I took some classes of his in school. He is one of, if not the, most dedicated individuals in this country to the protection of individual liberties, serving as litigation director for the ACLU for several years and having won just about every major free speech decision in the past few decades.
He worked, without compensation, on obtaining reparations for Holocaust victims against businesses and institutions that stole and profited off the worst genocide in the history of mankind. After he obtained a landmark settlement, he was asked by the court to perform additional YEARS of work to help distribute the proceeds, an absolutely thankless task that involved mediating between numerous bickering parties, all who were demanding their share of the settlement.
The latter work was not free and he never represented that it was. But several disgruntled claimants insist that, because Neuborne worked for free for several years obtaining the reparations, that he is somehow obligated to dedicate several more years of his life to overseeing the distribution of settlement proceeds for free as well, all while being lambasted from every side who thinks they are not getting their fair share.
One other point. Many antisemites like John Doe try to paint this as an example of “the Holocaust Industry.” In fact, although he is Jewish, Professor Neuborne has generally not been actively involved in matters involving the state of Israel or even Jewish affairs. He took this on because, as always, he takes on causes that are just and often considered losing matters until a good advocate steps in. This cause may have had additional personal meaning for him because he had recently suffered the experience of the death of a daughter, who was studying to become a rabbi, when she was in her mid 20’s.
I recognize that John Doe is a commenter (and a cowardly one at that, hiding behind complete anonymity), and the editors of this site have no control over what he says. Nevertheless, he really demonstrates the all too prevalent mentality that exists behind people who say “I just want to question Israeli policy.” What we have here is a case of character defamation and clear antisemitic bigotry. This is par for the course for the Israel hating movement. It is a true shame that muzzlewatch, even if unwittingly, has hit such a low point so early in its existence.
March 23rd, 2007 at 11:53 am
I recognize that John Doe is a commenter (and a cowardly one at that, hiding behind complete anonymity)
mr joshua, if that is your name. why dont you show us how much you love recognition and post your full name address and phone number on the http://www... what difference would it make if i had just left my name as john and not have added the doe? you call yourself joshua, i dont see a last name on your post…and id suggest you take up your battle against anti semitism with the guy at
the link i provided, he made the comments as you would have seen by following the link.
the night of the long knives is not my comment it is a quote from a portion of what youll find at the link i posted.
joshua comments….
“I just want to question Israeli policy.” What we have here is a case of character defamation and clear antisemitic bigotry.
john doe comments
joshua i have no allegience to any other country other than the united states of america.
herein is the rub…you guys always reserve the right to defend the indefensible by pulling out the threat du jour among the jewish cognizanti…antisemite….holocaust denier…
while im at it let me post here what this gentleman said, maybe you can call him antisemitic also.
Yad Vashem Council Chair slams settlers for abusing Palestinians - Haaretz - Israel News: The head of the council of the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial on Saturday assailed Jewish settlers who harass Palestinians in the West Bank city of Hebron, saying the abuse recalled the anti-Semitism of pre-World War Two Europe.
johndoe comments
my sentiments are not antisemitic, i mostly post what i read written by jews because i know that you israeli zionist gestapo would tag anyone who is not a jew and dares to comment on anything related to jewry or israel as an antisemite or the dreaded holocaust denier. i question the arrogance that says that one can not question history, we learn by questioning.
on another note….
why cant mel gibson tell the history of jesus christ in the passion as written in the new testament, it is histoy, and he is only telling it as he finds it told (maybe you’d prefer it told after some zionist revisionism). If you look through the old testament book of jeremiah you will find a prophet who was first sentenced to jail in a cistern and ultimately killed by the priests of israel…a similar fate happened to isaiah …talmudic tradition has it that he was sews in two by the jewish powers of that time….if someone made a movie about that part of history would that writer/producer be antisemitic?
if someone wrote a novel about how GOD kicked the nation or israel out of the land would HE be antisemitic?
on another note…who was the first to use the term apartheid about israel? was it jumpin jimminy carter?
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19993
March 23rd, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Yeah, I get it now.
This guy’s not antisemitc…
…he’s just antizionist.
March 23rd, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Global contest seeks a “just, peaceful” Jerusalem
http://tinyurl.com/2huvos
i get it, you guys cant see how being labeled anti semitic is despicable.
March 23rd, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Yehudi and R should get their history from something other than their Captain Zion comic books. They might start with Benny Morris, Simha Flapan, and Avi Shlaim, then they might even read John Glubb’s account, “A Soldier with the Arabs.” All the sources agree. The Palestinians were driven out and the ethnic cleansing began nearly a year before the war began in mid-May of ‘48.
In fact, some 4 years ago Haaretz published the latest documents found in the IDF archives covering the years ‘47 - ‘48: statements from Ben Gurion on the need to “cleanse and eradicate” the Arab presence, not just in the areas allocated by the UN G.A. resolution but from the river to the sea; direct orders from IDF high command to local commanders to “cleanse and eradicate” the Arab presence; after-action reports from those commanders detailing more than 24 massacres of Arabs (sometime whole villages, other times just the military age males, others were the random killings of Arabs found working in fields or walking along the roads), 12 cases of the gang-rape and murder of Arab women (Morris, a supporter of the cleansing, believes those 12 to be the tip of the iceberg), and systematic use of these events as propaganda to empty the land of Arabs.
The notion that the Arabs were commanded to all leave and then march back with the victorious army is utter nonsense, a fairy tale designed to sooth the sleep of the perpetrators. The British recorded all the broadcasts from both sides. In 1964 Erskine Childers and others studied all of them and no such broadcast was ever found, and still no evidence for such orders have ever been found. Benny Morris, in “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited,” has stated numerous times that he has found no evidence to support the claim - a clear statement from a Zionist who believes Ben Gurion was right to drive them all out, hardly a dupe of the doves. And, BTW, to claim that the Israeli forces were “rag-tag” and outnumbered is equally nonsense. They had been preparing since before WW2. They were far more organized and prepared than the Arabs and by June of ‘48 had nearly 90,000 fighters in the field (including Kibbutzim). Arms were smuggled in and the Czechs ignored the embargo on both sides by shipping enormous amounts of weapons to the Israelis, including Messerschmidt fighters which formed the core of the first Israeli air force.
If you want to to be a Zionist and support Israel that’s your prerogative, but have the courage and the intellectual honesty - as Morris does - to admit what really happened. If afterwards you’re still a Zionist, then go with God, at the very least you’re an honest Zionist. But it is the height of cowardice and ignorance to hide behind nationalistic propaganda and fairy tales designed for children.
March 23rd, 2007 at 7:08 pm
At what point do people stop trying to deny the perceptions/experiences/realities of other people and start trying to understand them?
March 24th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Sarah– at the point when two sides genuinely want to live in peace with each other. (cf. the Hamas charter if you have any questions on that score).
But actually, how is it that JVP can even comment on any issue of “censorship” when it has become legally involved in support of the Islamic Society of Boston in its lawsuit of intimidation against the David Project, a group which trains Israel advocates? Anyone’s hypocrisy alerts going off here?
March 25th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
I suspect it might be hard to come to the table when you have to climb over a mountain of rubble to get there. There are people that want peace on boths sides but the occupation is keeping that from becoming a possibility. For one thing, there has been a non-violent resistance movement of Paelstinians that have been trying -peaceably- to have their rights/lands respected by the Israeli military but to no avail…
March 25th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
” There are people that want peace on boths sides but the occupation is keeping that from becoming a possibility.”
there are indeed people on both sides who want peace.
but you’ve got the reason wrong. if you were right, there would have been peace from 1948-67, BEFORE the occupation, right?
the occupation was a response to terrorism and other violent attacks, not the other way around.
israel has said it is willing to live side by side with an arab state in the west bank. the palestinians have not. THAT is what is preventing peace.
but you’re right, there are honest people in non-violent movements on both sides doing great work.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
I’ve read your post Grif and I would suggest that you stop getting your history from Arabist and Revisionist sources like Allsion Weir and Rense. In fact, I have read the complete fantasy works of Illan Pappe etc. Pappe doesn’t even pretend to be writing accurate history, he’s quite clear in that he’s attempting to write a Marxist interpretation, in essence, a “narrative” in order to advance his ideology. Its interesting that you are aware of John Glubb, the British officer that lead the Jordanian Army as Arab sources refer to him as “Glubb Pasha.” and few people are aware of how ones sided the British were. I suggest reading “Rape of Palestine (1938) by William Ziff (great footnotes and replete with original source references.)
“The notion that the Arabs were commanded to all leave and then march back with the victorious army “ has been documented. I don’t know why its assumed to have been by a radio broadcast , as I recall reading accounts of officers from one of the five Arab armies warning village leaders to flee in person. Whether or not an individual researcher can find a broadcast may just reflect on the researcher and the quality of war time record keeping.
A lot of your ideas as to Israeli military strength is based on fantasy as well. The Israeli Air force at the beginning of the war were a few Piper Cubs I know one of the pilots). All arms (and Jewish immigrants) pre-independence, had to be run past a British blockade. Czechs didn’t ignore the embargo, they sold weapons to Jews who then had to figure out how to smuggle them past the British. At the same time, the Arab nations had no such restrictions and the duplicitous British, left all their Police forts etc in Arab hands when they withdrew. Messerschmidt fighters weren’t obtained by Israel till nearly the end of the war.
If you’ve read “Rape of Palestine” and still want to be an Anti-Zionist and oppose Israel that’s your prerogative, but have the courage and the intellectual honesty to admit what really happened. If afterwards you’re still a Anti-Zionist, then we know that you have other issues. But it is the height of cowardice and ignorance to hide behind Arab propaganda and fairy tales designed for useful idiots.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
R. While I know of Alison Weir I have not read her, nor am I familiar with the name Rense, nor do I mention Pappe at all in my post. But like the good Zionist you are, you prefer the straw man argument (you do know what that is, don’t you?). All the sources I quoted, save Glubb, are well respected Israeli historians, but you reject them all because their findings do not agree with your narrow precepts. I can only conclude that you also dismiss the documents retrieved from the IDF archives, which concur with the same findings. No doubt, you believe the IDF to be the authors of “fantasy works” as well.
I am aware that Glubb was referred to as Pasha, so what? It’s merely a title of respect and no more. The Brits had a mutual defense pact with Transjordan dating to the 1920s. The Arab Legion (4,300 fighters out of a total 6,000 soldiers) took up defensive positions in the West Bank and held them, never once invading any area alloted to Israel by the UN G.A. The Egyptian army’s ammo was supplied by the Brits, and the Brits cut the supply whenever they cared to. They also came down very hard on the Palestine Arabs during their revolt of the late 30’s, from which they never recovered, which gave the Zionists a great boost ten years later. So how one-sided were they? Britain’s actions were only one-sided in favor of Britain’s interests, however they were perceived by Whitehall at the time. It has always been so. Britain signed the Kitchener Agreement with the Arabs in 1914, the Balfour Agreement with the Zionists, and the Sykes-Picot Agreement with the French - all of which contradicted each other. Britain had, and has always had, one side side only - Britain’s.
There remains no documentation at all that the Arabs were ordered to leave en masse and return with the victorious army. The myth has always been that it was done with radio broadcasts. When that is demolished, folks like you pretend it was never alleged at all. If you read Morris’s “Revisited” you might learn (although I doubt you can learn anything at all) that fact, Morris, and the IDF docs, allow these facts: The Arab League asked member states to open their borders to refugees, and some areas were cleared by the Arabs for tactical reasons (a coming battle), but there were no such orders as the myth allows. In fact, as Morris makes clear, soon after (less than a month) the mass exodus began the Arab high command pleaded with them to stay put, and if already gone, to return to their villages.
The key phrase in your fourth paragraph is “at the beginning,” a very short transitional period. Israel had her own arms industry since 1945, for which there was no Arab parallel. They’d been producing their own bullets, two-inch mortar shells, STEN guns, and Mills grenades in underground factories. They’d been recruiting and training fighters since the 1920s in preparation for the wars (against the Brits and the Arabs) they knew would come. 42% of the Jewish population was of military age vs 28% of the Palestinians. Within short order after the outbreak of war the combined fighting Jewish force outnumbered the Arab armies by 2 to 1. There was no doubt by anyone who would win. Churchill said, “In the event of a conflict, not only can the Jews defend themselves, but they will defeat the Arabs.” In 1947, Yisrael Galili, head of the Haganah, cited the belief of the Haganah high command to the very same effect, with the caveat that all they needed was the ports to be open. In fact, every British observer in a position to know came to the same conclusion, speaking of the Jew’s “large reserve of trained and war-experienced officers” and that they had an “incalculable advantage over the Arab armies.” Gen George Marshall concurred, speaking of the total disarray of the Arab side, of Iraq able to send “only a handful of troops,”; Egypt with “insufficient equipment,” most of which was needed at home; Syria and Lebanon as “militarily unimportant,” as was Saudi Arabia. He also pointed to the jealousies between all the Arab states which made useful cooperation nearly impossible. On May 15, 1948, Ben Gurion wrote in his diary of 30,574 Israeli soldiers, 40% of whom were armed (and as you say only light aircraft), but they had massive stores of arms waiting transfer overseas: 30,000 rifles, 5,000 machine guns, 200 heavy machine guns, 30 fighter aircraft, several bombers, 50 65mm cannon, 35 antiaircraft guns, and 12 heavy mortars, all with large stores of ammo. (Collins and Lapierre). I could on here forever, enumerating the Israeli advantages, all of which speak to the superior planning and logistics of the Israelis. But the odd thing is that Zionists like you essentially insist the Israelis to have been incompetent, unable to foresee the logical consequences of their aims, and inept in their strategic planning. While the Revisionists you deplore give credit where credit is due: the Zionists were superb at achieving their aims and knew exactly what they were about.
Within five days of the war’s start, arms and men began arriving from all over the world. On May 20 a single airlift from the Czechs delivered 10,000 rifles and more than 3,000 machine guns. By mid-June the IDF numbered 41,000, by September, 90,000, by December, 96,441 (the peak). In contrast the Arab armies combined, by the most generous estimate, totaled 23,500. So, ask your buddy who flew the pipers just how long they were flying Pipers and what replaced them.
I’ve got to run, but try to learn something one of these days instead of merely mouthing slogans. And stop hiding the Zionist light under a bushel and pretending they were just a disorganized as the Arabs. Its an idiotic argument.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:50 am
R.
One more thing I forgot to add before I ran out the door. The above figures concerning the growth of the IDF from May 15 on do not include the Kibbutzim and other armed militias, which numbered in the tens of thousands.
And those pesky Messerschmidts? Also included were a number of Spitfires. Both were flown by highly experienced volunteers who had fought with the RAF and USAF during the war. The Egyptian Air Force were consciously denied advanced training by the British and were no match at all.
When did they arrive? According to Martin Gilbert’s standard history “Israel”, a man after your Zionist heart (I mean yours, not mine, if you’ve ever read him) they arrived only “weeks” after the outbreak of war.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Grif, thank you for these very informative posts. Don’t expect what I’ve come to know as the Chatty Cathy Troll Squad on this blog to learn anything or to engage in any thoughtful discussion. As you say, they are instead given to automatically replying to any and all posts with slogans and invective.
Pull the string… “anti-Israel”. Pull the string… “self-hating Jew”. Pull the string… “who’s being muzzled now?” Pull the string… “JVP sucks.” I wasn’t into Chatty Cathy as a youth and I certainly am not now.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:30 am
Alan, I’m curious what you mean by the “Cathy Chatty Troll Squad.” There are several commenters who have pointed serious factual errors that the diarists and other Israel hating commenters make. They’ve also noted the racism and hypocrisy behind much of the comments and movement.
It seems to me that you are unable to engage these comments on their substance, so you are reduced to name calling. That’s really too bad. Admitedly, it’s difficult because the “merits” of the Israel bashing arguments really don’t stand up. But at least you could try.
March 27th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
“”Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t.”
Mark Twain
The above quote aptly applies to the Avia S.199 in Israeli service. An offspring of the aircraft that carried on its back much of the burden of the Nazi Luftwaffe and its quest for the thousand year Reich ended up being pivotal in the War of Independence of the Jewish nation. I don’t think even Tom Clancy could have come with that possibility in any of his books.
After WWII the Czechs were left with the remnants of aircraft factories that had been used by the occupying Germans to build Messerschmitt aircraft, in particular the Bf109 in the Gustav variant, or G model. Avia was one of such factories with a good supply of Bf109G airframes but with no Daimler-Benz engines. I read somewhere that the engines have been destroyed by an allied air raid; other sources said it had been a factory fire after the war. While the DB engines could not be had, there was a good supply of Jumo 211F engines. The catch was that these engines were designed for bombers; they had plenty of power but they were heavy, and they developed a lot of torque at low R.P.M, like a truck engine.
The Czechs were undaunted by this fact and proceeded to match the Bf109G airframe with the Jumo engine and thus one of the most disliked and without doubt the worst 109 variant ever made, the Avia S.199, was born, or ill conceived.
In 1947 the British had started pulling out of Palestine and Zionist Jews had commenced what would be known as the War of Independence, a war that created the state of Israel. The Zionists did not have a proper air force but a ragtag squadron of mismatched light aircraft from which this hardy people dropped hand grenades and fired infantry machine guns through the windows. This outfit was called the “Shirut Avir” (air service). When the regular armed forces of Egypt, Iraq and Syria invaded Palestine after Ben Gurion proclaimed the existence of the state of Israel, the Jews realized that they needed real aircraft to contest the total air supremacy of the Arab air forces over Tel Aviv and what was supposed to be the new nation of Israel.
Cloak-and-dagger operations got in motion worldwide trying to scrounge fighters for the not yet existing Israeli air force. The Czech government lent an ear to the Jewish request and was willing and able to supply the fighters, for a good price. That those fighters were the Avia S.199 and that they had to overpay for them matter none to the Jews because the situation in Israel was desperate and beggars cannot be choosers (another quote for you).
Money exchanged hands and a core of Jews and Gentiles (Machal volunteers) showed up in Czechoslovakia to get trained in the “Messerschmitt”, as the Avia was known to these men who had flown allied planes, Mustangs and Spitfires, against the 109. The Czechs called the Avia “Mezek” or Mule because of its stubborn handling. I doubt that was an official name. The Israelis gave the Avia the official name of Sakin or knife but unofficially continued to be called the “Messerschmitt” or Mule.
This first group of pilots included two Machal volunteers, Lou Lenart and Milton Rubenfeld (Pee Wee Herman’s dad), and eight Israeli Sherut Avir pilots, Modi Alon, Ezer Weizman, Jacob Ben-Chaim, Pinchas Ben-Porat, Itzchak Hennenson, Misha Kenner, Nachman Me’iri, and Eddie Cohen. Before they could be properly trained news reached them that Egyptian bombers had killed 42 people in Tel Aviv during a raid. The Israeli pilots demanded to be sent back to Israel immediately with their Mules even though they haven’t even completed gunnery training. They could practice on real targets was their argument against the best advice of their Czech mentors.
This unruly but dedicated bunch plus a few Czech mechanics hastily departed for the Holy Land and by May 29th, 1948, they had four aircraft assembled but not tested. The situation was desperate as an Egyptian armored column was only 20 miles away from Tel Aviv and the only thing in its way was an outnumbered, scattered and worn out Israeli army. Lou Lenart, Modi Alon, Ezer Weizman and Eddie Cohen took off in their four S.199s and found the Egyptians at a bridge near the Arab settlement of Isdoud. They bombed, strafed them and brought havoc on the unsuspecting Egyptians. From a military point of view this aerial assault was nothing to write home about; mostly all the aircraft guns jammed because they had never been test fired before, but the psychological effect on the Egyptians of seeing Israeli combat planes, real planes, was devastating on their morale. The Egyptian advanced stopped and it gave the Jewish ground forces a respite to reorganize and counterattack. During this action Eddie Cohen was downed by ground fire and to this day his remains have not been found.
The May 29th attack also marked the official formation date of Israel’s first fighter squadron, the 101st “Hakrav Harishona” (First Fighter) Squadron, commanded by Mordechai “Modi” Alon.
Modi Alon became the first Israeli pilot to down an enemy aircraft with his Mule when on June 3rd, 1948 he shot down two Egyptian C-47’s bombing Tel Aviv. The Egyptians until then have bombed the city with impunity and nobody, neither Egyptians nor the people of Tel Aviv expected to see a lonely Avia coming out of nowhere and blasting the Dakotas out of the air. The morale boost to the Jewish civilian populace was beyond measure, and so was the demoralizing effect on the Egyptians.
The Avia S.199 became the reluctant hero of the hour. Being at the right time and the right place abated for its unforgiving handling but the aircraft exacted a high toll from the Israeli and Gentile pilots who flew it. Many pilots were killed in take off and landing accidents. The Mule had a very heavy nose, too much torque during take off (full power) settings, that combined with the infamous 109’s narrow wheel track made take offs a risky venture. If the pilot survived the take off the aircraft was still a handful because the engine did not develop the right power at the right times. Landings with a nose heavy aircraft were no piece of cake either. Modi Alon perished in a landing accident on October 16th after a mechanical failure prevented his landing gear from deploying. Amidst his attempts to lower the gear, his aircraft, D.114, hit the ground and exploded.
Israel bought 25 Mules and 24 reached the Holy Land. The missing aircraft was impounded by the Italians who were enforcing a UN arms embargo against Palestine. Jewish operatives blew up the Macchi factory that was building and shipping C.205’s to the Egyptians. I surmise that there was no love lost among the parties involved. Of the 24 aircraft, the Israelis were only able to keep a handful airworthy at any given time. Combat, accidents and precarious maintenance resulted in high Mule attrition and by 1949 only six were left, and Spitfires and Mustangs quickly replaced them, the aircraft the Israeli pilots had wanted from the beginning.
Despite its flaws, the S.199 covered itself with glory as the first effective combat aircraft of the new born state of Israel. Its effect as a morale booster probably surpassed its tactical accomplishments in the battlefield.
Somehow the Czechs flew the type until 1955. I wonder how they pulled it off.”
March 27th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
“Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t.”
Mark Twain
The above quote aptly applies to the Avia S.199 in Israeli service. An offspring of the aircraft that carried on its back much of the burden of the Nazi Luftwaffe and its quest for the thousand year Reich ended up being pivotal in the War of Independence of the Jewish nation. I don’t think even Tom Clancy could have come with that possibility in any of his books.
After WWII the Czechs were left with the remnants of aircraft factories that had been used by the occupying Germans to build Messerschmitt aircraft, in particular the Bf109 in the Gustav variant, or G model. Avia was one of such factories with a good supply of Bf109G airframes but with no Daimler-Benz engines. I read somewhere that the engines have been destroyed by an allied air raid; other sources said it had been a factory fire after the war. While the DB engines could not be had, there was a good supply of Jumo 211F engines. The catch was that these engines were designed for bombers; they had plenty of power but they were heavy, and they developed a lot of torque at low R.P.M, like a truck engine.
The Czechs were undaunted by this fact and proceeded to match the Bf109G airframe with the Jumo engine and thus one of the most disliked and without doubt the worst 109 variant ever made, the Avia S.199, was born, or ill conceived.
In 1947 the British had started pulling out of Palestine and Zionist Jews had commenced what would be known as the War of Independence, a war that created the state of Israel. The Zionists did not have a proper air force but a ragtag squadron of mismatched light aircraft from which this hardy people dropped hand grenades and fired infantry machine guns through the windows. This outfit was called the “Shirut Avir” (air service). When the regular armed forces of Egypt, Iraq and Syria invaded Palestine after Ben Gurion proclaimed the existence of the state of Israel, the Jews realized that they needed real aircraft to contest the total air supremacy of the Arab air forces over Tel Aviv and what was supposed to be the new nation of Israel.
Cloak-and-dagger operations got in motion worldwide trying to scrounge fighters for the not yet existing Israeli air force. The Czech government lent an ear to the Jewish request and was willing and able to supply the fighters, for a good price. That those fighters were the Avia S.199 and that they had to overpay for them matter none to the Jews because the situation in Israel was desperate and beggars cannot be choosers (another quote for you).
Money exchanged hands and a core of Jews and Gentiles (Machal volunteers) showed up in Czechoslovakia to get trained in the “Messerschmitt”, as the Avia was known to these men who had flown allied planes, Mustangs and Spitfires, against the 109. The Czechs called the Avia “Mezek” or Mule because of its stubborn handling. I doubt that was an official name. The Israelis gave the Avia the official name of Sakin or knife but unofficially continued to be called the “Messerschmitt” or Mule.
This first group of pilots included two Machal volunteers, Lou Lenart and Milton Rubenfeld (Pee Wee Herman’s dad), and eight Israeli Sherut Avir pilots, Modi Alon, Ezer Weizman, Jacob Ben-Chaim, Pinchas Ben-Porat, Itzchak Hennenson, Misha Kenner, Nachman Me’iri, and Eddie Cohen. Before they could be properly trained news reached them that Egyptian bombers had killed 42 people in Tel Aviv during a raid. The Israeli pilots demanded to be sent back to Israel immediately with their Mules even though they haven’t even completed gunnery training. They could practice on real targets was their argument against the best advice of their Czech mentors.
This unruly but dedicated bunch plus a few Czech mechanics hastily departed for the Holy Land and by May 29th, 1948, they had four aircraft assembled but not tested. The situation was desperate as an Egyptian armored column was only 20 miles away from Tel Aviv and the only thing in its way was an outnumbered, scattered and worn out Israeli army. Lou Lenart, Modi Alon, Ezer Weizman and Eddie Cohen took off in their four S.199s and found the Egyptians at a bridge near the Arab settlement of Isdoud. They bombed, strafed them and brought havoc on the unsuspecting Egyptians. From a military point of view this aerial assault was nothing to write home about; mostly all the aircraft guns jammed because they had never been test fired before, but the psychological effect on the Egyptians of seeing Israeli combat planes, real planes, was devastating on their morale. The Egyptian advanced stopped and it gave the Jewish ground forces a respite to reorganize and counterattack. During this action Eddie Cohen was downed by ground fire and to this day his remains have not been found.
The May 29th attack also marked the official formation date of Israel’s first fighter squadron, the 101st “Hakrav Harishona” (First Fighter) Squadron, commanded by Mordechai “Modi” Alon.
Modi Alon became the first Israeli pilot to down an enemy aircraft with his Mule when on June 3rd, 1948 he shot down two Egyptian C-47’s bombing Tel Aviv. The Egyptians until then have bombed the city with impunity and nobody, neither Egyptians nor the people of Tel Aviv expected to see a lonely Avia coming out of nowhere and blasting the Dakotas out of the air. The morale boost to the Jewish civilian populace was beyond measure, and so was the demoralizing effect on the Egyptians.
The Avia S.199 became the reluctant hero of the hour. Being at the right time and the right place abated for its unforgiving handling but the aircraft exacted a high toll from the Israeli and Gentile pilots who flew it. Many pilots were killed in take off and landing accidents. The Mule had a very heavy nose, too much torque during take off (full power) settings, that combined with the infamous 109’s narrow wheel track made take offs a risky venture. If the pilot survived the take off the aircraft was still a handful because the engine did not develop the right power at the right times. Landings with a nose heavy aircraft were no piece of cake either. Modi Alon perished in a landing accident on October 16th after a mechanical failure prevented his landing gear from deploying. Amidst his attempts to lower the gear, his aircraft, D.114, hit the ground and exploded.
Israel bought 25 Mules and 24 reached the Holy Land. The missing aircraft was impounded by the Italians who were enforcing a UN arms embargo against Palestine. Jewish operatives blew up the Macchi factory that was building and shipping C.205’s to the Egyptians. I surmise that there was no love lost among the parties involved. Of the 24 aircraft, the Israelis were only able to keep a handful airworthy at any given time. Combat, accidents and precarious maintenance resulted in high Mule attrition and by 1949 only six were left, and Spitfires and Mustangs quickly replaced them, the aircraft the Israeli pilots had wanted from the beginning.
Despite its flaws, the S.199 covered itself with glory as the first effective combat aircraft of the new born state of Israel. Its effect as a morale booster probably surpassed its tactical accomplishments in the battlefield.
Somehow the Czechs flew the type until 1955. I wonder how they pulled it off.
March 27th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Alan,
Thanks for the note of support, I appreciate it. You’re right, of course, about the knee-jerk responders. They’re as reliable as rain in April (before global warming, although they might not believe that either), as evidenced by #23. I’ve always believed that facts speak louder than invective, and it is much to JVP’s credit that they sponsor a forum that allows room for the debate.
Anyway, thanks again.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
Nice post on the early Israeli Airforce and their “mules.” Interesting that the Egyptians were using C-47s as bombers, not much of a bomber force. My Dad put in a lot of time piloting C-47s. They’re an early twin-engine troop/cargo transport, the civilian designation is DC-3. If anyone remembers “Terry and the Pirates,” that’s what Terry piloted much of the time. Rather a lumbering plane they would have been easy to shoot down. The several B-17’s of the IAF were another matter, of course.
As difficult as those “mules” were on landing and take-off (where most of the Israeli losses occurred with these craft) they raised hell with the Egyptian AF and inflicted enormous losses, (with only 2 or 3 - sources differ - lost in air-to-air combat).
56 total Egyptian aircraft lost in the war from air combat, ground losses, and AA fire vs 25 Israeli to the same.
What the post doesn’t mention is that the first IAF P-51’s appeared in Sept. 48 and were flying missions by Oct. The first Spits from Europe also arrived in September (two were already flying). A total of 17 Spits saw the war out.
March 28th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
yes, grif, you can count on us pointing out the lies and one-sidedness that JVP spouts out.
you keep whining about how we always tear down your lies with the truth. it’s a clever way of avoiding actual discussion. but since your anti-israel invective cannot be defended, that’s probably the best you can hope for.
March 29th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Arm chair quarter backing a war is always interesting. Of course, having the luxury of doing it afterwards is quite different than predicting that same result before hand. No one anticipated that the Arab forces of five countries plus irregulars would be so badly lead that they would be routed. Afterwards their failure and mistakes were analyzed. When Israel had its back to the wall, they mustered up their entire reserves in order to win and survive. I suspect that it would happen that way again were it made necessary.
March 29th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
R,
As my above posts make clear there was no doubt at the time as to who was badly led and who would win.
That belief was shared at the time by Churchill, Marshall, all British and American observers on the ground, including Gen. MacMillan, commander in chief of British forces in Palestine, who referred to Arab military capacity as “beneath criticism . . . All the training and assistance given them has been to no avail.” Ismail Safwat of Iraq, the chairman of the Arab League’s technical military committee, concurred, warning of the Israeli’s “decisive military advantage.” The Palestinian leader, Musa al-Alami had already thrown in the towel by February 1948, observing that, “The Palestine cause is lost inasmuch the Arab states are not preparing for war or giving any real aid to the Palestine cause.”
The American ambassador to Cairo reported “Arab morale almost totally collapsed in Palestine,” along with the wide-spread belief that “Arab armies will probably be soundly defeated by Jews.”
Yisrael Galili, head of the Haganah, cited the belief of the Haganah high command that, “it could repulse any attack by the Palestinian Arabs, even with the aid of the Arab States.” Since he said that in 1947, and since he was the head of the Haganah, I doubt he can be accused of armchair quarterbacking.
March 31st, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Yehudi #28,
You refer to my “anti-Israel invective,” yet I argue for the superior abilities of the Zionists in the ‘48 war, while you apparently prefer the insulting notion that the Zionists, in essence, were even more incompetent than the Arabs, hard to believe anyone could be, but it’s your fairy tale not mine.
If you want to discuss, then discuss. My argument on the ‘48 war is laid out above. Where is yours?
April 1st, 2007 at 11:04 am
grif, what is your point? that israeli forces were superior in the ‘48 war? seeing as they won the war, that’s a bit trivial, don’t you think? what is there to discuss?
April 1st, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Yehudi,
What’s your point?
There was a discussion. You added nothing to it except post #28, a personal attack that had no bearing on the subject, or on reality.
Now in #32, you seem to have glimpsed the outlines of the matter, but refuse the content, and the context, of the question, the particular answer to which has been insisted upon by the Israelis since 1948.
But, of course, you already know this. That’s why you mount nothing but spurious attacks and obtuse distractions.
With you, there is nothing to discuss, for discussion is not your objective.
April 12th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
grif, it sounds like you and yehudi agree. you both admit that israel won the war of 48.