American Jewish Support for Israel: It’s Not As Deep As You Think
Posted on March 14 2007 by Cecilie Surasky under Independent Jewish Voices.Cecilie called my attention to a comment post about Pastor John Hagee. “R” wrote:
Other than in the San Francisco Bay Area, I would estimate that the vast majority of affiliated American Jews agree with and support AIPAC. Its only a handful, typically on the far left that are other wise. Conversely, when I hear Israel being inappropriately criticized by a Jew that doesn’t practice Judaism, go to Shul, keep Kosher, speak Hebrew, celebrate the holidays etc, my first thought is,”Don’t speak as a Jew, you aren’t speaking for me.”
I thought this deserved a more detailed answer because it reflects some misconceptions that are very common among Israel advocates: that most Jews believe as they do; and that non-Zionist Jews are disaffiliated and distant from their religion.
There’s quite a lot of statistical evidence, much of it collected by Israel advocates, showing that American Jewish support for Israel is waning. Ukeles and colleagues summarized the recent studies in a 2006 report titled Young Jewish Adults in the United States Today, published by the American Jewish Committee. I’ve excerpted a few passages from Chapter Two, the Research Review.
There is a consensus among several studies that Israel is not central to young people’s Jewish identity. In Horowitz’s (2000) study of Jews ages 22 to 52 in the New York area, only 33 percent indicated that “supporting Israel” was related “a lot” to what being Jewish involved for them. In fact, on a list of fifteen values, it was ranked eleventh in significance. Finally, in a study of teens (Kadushin, Kelner, and Saxe, 2000), “caring about Israel” was cited as “very important” by only 31 percent of the respondents, lagging considerably behind several other values that were endorsed by upwards of 50 percent of the respondents…
Cohen (2005b) identified generational differences in the level of “engagement with Israel,” specifically contrasting people ages 25 to 39 with those ages 55 to 69. He found that differences were especially pronounced on items relating to “caring about Israel” and on measures related to the extent to which people talked and read about Israel. Older Jews were also more likely than their younger counterparts to hold positive images of Israelis…
Relying on the findings of several focus-group-based studies, Luntz (2005) describes a growing impatience with Israel and a growing emotional connection with the Palestinian cause, especially among Jewish graduate students. In an earlier (2003) study of people ages 18 to 29, Luntz found qualified support for Israel, accompanied by expressed comfort in questioning the Israeli position. He states that young Jews’ “association with Israel is frighteningly weak and ill defined, despite its near daily appearance in the news headlines.”
There is disagreement on how to react to these data. The authors point out that Israel attachment is higher in Jews who have visited Israel, and suggest the expansion of programs like Birthright Israel (I’d suggest that Israel attachment would be lower among Jews who’ve visited the occupied West Bank - but as far as I know, there hasn’t been a study).
About the data itself, however, there’s not much disagreement. One has to conclude that AIPAC’s staunch pro-Israel stand is far to the right of the sentiment of most American Jews.
There is more statistical support for the other contention - that only disaffiliated Jews fail to support Israel -but it’s certainly not universally true.
The Orthodox are, indeed, much more likely to be Israel supporters (though check out Dov Bear’s blog for a delightful exception); and Jewish critics of Israel will more often identify themselves as secular Jews.
Nonetheless, a read through Kushner and Solomon’s Wrestling With Zion reveals that some of the most articulate critics of Zionism are, in fact, practicing and committed Jews. Whether you agree with their critique or not, it’s obvious that it comes from deeply held Jewish values, and from a thorough understanding of Jewish religion and history.
In fact, the argument has been made that Zionism has become a substitute mode of Jewish identification for many American Jews who no longer study Torah or adhere to halakhah.
For me - as a Jew who does keep kosher, attend shul, pray, etc. - Zionism is, at best, a distraction. It represents the belief that we must take care of ourselves, because G-d cannot care for us in this dangerous and frightening world. It is the pursuit of power, and has led us into the evils that are consequent to power.
There is a strong movement afoot in the U.S. to re-engage Jewish ritual; to rediscover in Judaism the moral and spiritual strength to change the world. Many of us, disillusioned by Zionism, are enthusiastic participants in this movement.
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March 15th, 2007 at 8:23 am
You wrote:
“For me - as a Jew who does keep kosher, attend shul, pray, etc. - Zionism is, at best, a distraction. It represents the belief that we must take care of ourselves, because G-d cannot care for us in this dangerous and frightening world. It is the pursuit of power, and has led us into the evils that are consequent to power.”
It seems that your only association with Judaism, other than falling within the Nazi racial definition of a “Jew”, is your aversion to the concept of a Jewish state. Presumably, you have no problem with the other 190+ nation states in the world. The pursuit of power and statehood and the “evils consequent of power” of Micronesia, Qatar and Liechtenstein is probably OK. Just when Jews want a state, it’s “Whoa Nellie!”, is that it?
In that you don’t actively practice Judaism, from what is Zionism distracting you?
March 15th, 2007 at 10:47 am
Um… if keeping kosher, attending shul, praying daily, studying Torah, and generally adhering to halakhic practice is not actively practicing Judaism - what is, according to your definition? Has Zionism replaced all forms of Jewish observance for you?
If so, you have my deep sympathy.
By the way, I am not sure exactly what you mean by “the Nazi definition fo a Jew” - but one of the interesting (and ancient) challenges for our religion derives from the fact that Judaism is passed by the bloodline. The children of a Jewish mother are considered to be Jewish - even if they do not practice.
This posed a difficult challenge for the ancient Israelites, whose adherence to G-d’s laws diminished with the generations, to the point where G-d had to banish us from the land. It poses a similar challenge for modern Jews.
In my opinion, our return to the land is not a substitute for a return to Jewish religious practice.
March 15th, 2007 at 11:24 am
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117957727.html?categoryid=1&cs=1
The Economist observed this week that “knee jerk defensiveness” of Israel ultimately will erode support for that country around the world, even among Jews. Only 17% of American Jews today regard themselves as “pro-Zionist,” the magazine points out, and only 57% say that “caring about Israel is a very important part of being Jewish.” And Jimmy Carter only exacerbates these mixed signals with his recent perorations that Israel must “give back” territories to the Palestinians.
March 15th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Being Jewish means different things to different people. For some, strict observance of religious practice is important. Others are more attracted to an understanding of Jewish history. Still others are attracted to the culture from a more modern perspective. Given the storied history of the Jewish people, it’s not surprising that there’s a lot to choose from.
For some people, their being Jewish creates an affinity for the one sliver of land that is a Jewish state. This is hardly surprising. Most americans of a particular ethnicity, religion, or nationality feel at the very least sympathy towards their homelands. Jews are no different than anyone else in this regard.
However, the author’s claim that this somehow serves as a “substitute” for Judaism is false and quite offensive. Andrew himself has to admit that most Orthodox (who tend to be more committed to religious practice) overwhelmingly support Israel. So it really doesn’t make sense to say that non-observant Jews are using their support of Israel as a substitute. They are not exclusive.
Is AIPAC more supportive of Israel than the typical American Jew? Well, in terms of passion and commitment, I would assume so. Interest groups tend to attract those who are, well, particularly interested.
Many American Jews may not actively follow the goings on in Israel in the media, participate in discussion groups, or the like (although observent Jews from all the major denominations do, in fact, tend to be more interested). But their sympathies, like most Americans, are nevertheless overwhelmingly with Israel.
Most Irish Americans probably sympathize with Ireland’s claims of independence and are Republic supporters. But most probably do not have the active involvement at the level of a lobbyist.
March 15th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
You are rather mixing several points. Overall I perceive a vast diminution in Jewish practice, culture, identity and education at all levels in the US including but not limited to not understanding theneed to support our connection to Israel. Thats is sad and another issue thats we need to address.
Then of course, there is the religious/secular issue in Isral and here in the US. Of course, I agree that just returning to the land is not a substitue for religious practice.
However, I stand by my initial thought as the vast majority of Israel bashing Jews that I have interacted with, tend to be those of Jewish heritage only, typically of a far left orientation, and generally non-practicing. Usually ifone getsinto a detailed conversation, they don’;t really have a grasps of either Judaism or history. I accept that there maybe exceptions. I’ve run into those that still have the Shet’l mentality of “don’t make waves, don’t anger The Other” but its time we all escaped mental Mitzraim also.
March 15th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
There are different grounds for the minority of Jews who are opposed to Zionism. Some Jews oppose it on secular grounds, others have a religious based opposition to returning prematurely.
All fine and well. So there’s an easy solution. Don’t immigrate to Israel. I personally do not consider living in Israel to be necessary for my existence as a Jews. But I recognize that other Jews who have made that determination deserve the opportunity to partake in the nation-building and community building that other peoples have.
March 15th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
being a non-zionist jew is one thing. if jews in america, especially young ones, don’t feel a connection to israel, it is because we are not educating them enough about the connection between the holocaust and israel, and the need for the state of israel to be a place of refuge for oppressed jews worldwide. it is also because, especially in the bay area, they hear a lot of lies and misinformation (”palestine was a country that israel is occupying”, which is simply factually false, yet many on the left believe it.)
but being an anti-zionist jew is something else. it IS being anti-semitic.
March 15th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
I agree completely - I am a kosher, synagogue-attending, increasingly observant Jew… who is also non-Zionist or perhaps even anti-Zionist. My religious beliefs and connection to my culture and history do not lead me to feel that a separate Jewish state is something desirable, especially not on land that was already occupied by Palestinians. I might feel differently about the concept of a Jewish state had I seen Israel be founded and led in a just, ethical, Jewish direction that didn’t involve oppression and racism. But generally, I’m not one for religious nationalism… And I believe the emphasis should be on Jews being safe and connected throughout the diaspora rather than focusing all our energy and money on a separate country founded on land that we are not the only ones entitled to.
March 15th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
PS - Even religious Jews can have oppositions to Zionism on a political and ethical level, not just on a Torah-based level.
Also, Yehudi, that is a lie - Like nearly all Jewish American youth I was fully indoctrinated into Zionism as a kid through Young Judaea, trips to Israel to visit my Israeli family, etc. I was taught it was THE solution to the HOlocaust and the only way to keep the Holocaust from happening again. I have no lack of understanding of the various rationales for Israel’s existence as Jewish state… I simply think that they do not justify the state’s actions and I disagree that this is the way to keep our people safe from further genocide.
March 15th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
So, nu , what do you propose? Shall Israel be dismantled so that we can beg to return to the Ghettoes, shet’lim and Mellahs? Shall we just agree that we shall always be a nation different than all others, in that we chose to be subservient and to exist at the whim of others? That national self determination is a right for other peoples but not Jews? What exactly is it that you propose?
March 15th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Another Jew,
What you said. Totally.
Also, Dov Bear ain’t the only one. Tune into Orthodox Anarchist some time.
And I recommend everybody should read Yakov Rabkin’s superb book, A Threat from Within: A century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism, for Orthodox opposition to Zionism.
Yehudi, what exactly is the connection between the Holocaust and Israel? There were Jews that escaped the Holocaust by going to Israel — but very few. And many of those eventually wound up in the USA, Canada or Australia. There were Jews that escaped the Holocaust by going to South America too.
March 15th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
This is a very good discussion.
It seems to me that for some American Jews who are not halakhically observant, politics becomes a way of expressing and perhaps exploring Jewish identity.
This is true on the right and on the left. Joshua, I did not mean to imply that for all Zionists, attachment to Israel is a substitute for religious practice. But there is definitely a substantial subset of Jews who attend temple on the High Holy Days only, eat foods that are treyf, ignore the Sabbath, etc. - but send their children on trips to Israel and buy Israel bonds, and advocate for Israel, and this is their way of connecting to Judaism.
You’ve been to Scarsdale, yes?
Similarly, there are many on the left who consider themselves to be engaging a Jewish tradition of social justice through activism on labor issues, or Palestinian rights, or other causes. (Maybe you’ve been to Berkley, too).
I would not dismiss either mode. In both cases, people of Jewish descent are doing what they think is right, and what they think is in keeping with their Jewish heritage.
Both can be pathways to observance. Many kids come back from Israel with a new commitment to religious learning; and, for me and many others, activism on behalf of people we see as oppressed (including Palestinians) has opened a door to Torah study as we seek guidance on the moral questions that Israel’s and America’s actions sometimes raise.
The question is: what do we think that G-d requires of us? I hope that every Jew will ask this question; but I would not insist that every Jew give the same answer.
March 15th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Judaism is multi-faceted and brings different meaning to different people at different phases of their lives. “What does HaShem require of us?” is one great question, but I don’t think that the answer precludes us as Jews from asserting our right to national self determination. So if that trip to Israel ignites a Jewish soul to become Baal Tchuvah? Isn’t that a good thing?
But, all that aside, what exactly is it that you propose for the state of Israel? Wait for Moshiach? Disband and revert, put on the yellow star and return to the shet’ls, mellahs and ghettoes? Or get real and understand that Israel is a nation like any other, (although in a tough neighborhhood) with real world problems that have to be dealt with realistically.
March 15th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
It’s interesting that the only fate you suggest for the Jews, in the hypothetical absence of Israel, is to return to the ghetto.
Long before the founding of Israel, as you of course know, waves of Jews came to the New World - from Spain, and later from Germany, and then Russia and Poland and Romania, etc. - and made a home for ourselves here.
We helped to build a multi-ethnic democracy, with legal protection for the right to live, worship and pray in our tradition, in any tradition.
We have had to fight, at many times, to maintain these rights and we will have to do so again. But in the United States, we are not ghettoized.
A friend of mine likes to say that the ethnic state is one solution to the problem of ethnic discrimination - but it’s not the only, nor necessarily the best one.
Remember what Jacob does on his way to Seir, when he hears that Esau is coming out to attack him?
Jacob was not concerned about his individual preservation. He was concerned that some survive, to continue to worship G-d. Thus with the Jews. We have been around for four thousand years, not because we concentrated our forces and fought off our enemies, but because, in dispersion, we maintained our relationship with the Almighty, by keeping our traditions and our texts, and by teaching them carefully to our children wherever we went.
To put it another way: clustering all Jews together in the close proximity of a maniac who may soon have a nuclear bomb may not be the best strategy to ensure Jewish survival.
So we say, well, it’s a rough neighborhood, and we have to play rough. And then we are drawn into acts of aggression which we call acts of defense; and we ration other people’s water, and restrict their movement, and take their property; and we write off the deaths of children as necessary to ensure our safety, and so on.
The truth is that nothing we do will ensure our survival: not in Israel, not in America; other than G-d’s will. It takes courage to accept this, and to act with humility and compassion in the face of danger. When we do, though, I think we honor G-d.
Speaking for myself, I do not propose disbanding the state of Israel. I think a two-state solution, based on mutually agreed borders and security measures, would be a practical next step. It’s my opinion that Israel is doing less than everything possible to achieve this.
Should Israel remain a Jewish state in the long run? If this means maintaining discriminatory social and legal mechanisms to gerrymander a Jewish majority, I think it poses serious moral problems.
I could endorse a Jewish state along the lines that Bernard Avashai has outlined, one that is Jewish in its history, language and customs, but in which citizenship is not restricted to Jews, and in which all citizens have equal rights:
Could such a state, without an enforced Jewish majority, be overrun by some other ethnic group that would dismantle its institution and purge it of Jewish identity?
Yes.
But so could Israel as it now stands, in constant war with its neighbors, eventually face destruction.
There are no guarantees. We must try to act morally without them.
March 15th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Someone recently mentioned being herded into cattle cars. Are you all using these hyperboles for dramatic effect, or do you perchance believe this? Is it an example of Gilad Atzmon’s ‘Holocaust religion’ and ‘pre-traumatic stress disorder’?
March 15th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
okay, another jew, you claim to be aware of our history, yet you are mistaken about the founding of israel. “land that was already occupied by palestinians”?? what is a palestinian? you mean arabs? palestinian jews and palestinian arabs were both on the land, for thousand of years. the only actual country that was ever there was the ancient state of israel.
you’re jewish? you had relatives in the holocaust?
itziki says “Yehudi, what exactly is the connection between the Holocaust and Israel? There were Jews that escaped the Holocaust by going to Israel — but very few”
dude, do i really have to tell you that israel didn’t exist during the holocaust? that britain, who controlled the land, did not allow jews on refugee ships to land? have you not heard about those refugee ships? do you not know that the US did not allow jews to immigrate from europe. didn’t let them in.
no, even when the world knew what was going on, the jews had no place to go. very very few got out, and the ones that did snuck out. the world community did NOT offer the jews a place to go, did NOT allow jewish refugees in their countries.
THAT is the connection to israel.
israel was created as a place for jews to go when they are oppressed. and it works.
thousands of jews left the former soviet union, india, africa, etc. to go to israel to be able to practice freely and be free from oppression.
it’s amazing to me how ignorant people, especially jewish people, are on the subject.
March 15th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
uh alan, it’s not drama, jews WERE herded into cattle cards during ww2. or hadn’t you heard? maybe you should rent the movie paper clips…
March 15th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
So… because Jews were mistreated and murdered during WW2 before there was an Israel, you believe the same would happen again if there weren’t an Israel?
March 16th, 2007 at 6:41 am
Alan Cheney:
I believe that there exists in this world, pathological, genocidal hatred toward Jews. I believe that there are people who if given the chance would slaughter every Jew in the world. I believe that the President of Iran would nuke Israel in a heartbeat even if 20 or 30 million Iranians died in retaliation. He would view it as a small price to pay. I believe that Hezbollah and Al Queda would do so if they had the chance.
The Holocaust was a crime of incitement. It started in the 1920’s. The real killing didn’t begin until 1941. The ground is being laid right now. There is a theory of genocide. It follows @8 steps, starting with dehumanization. Read the Islamic Extermist press. Go to Memri.org.
I am 47 YO. I was born 15 years after WW II. In my lifetime, there have been at least 4 Genocides; the Camdodians, the Bosnians, the Rwandans and Darfur. Darfur is happening right now, this second. There is actually a ninth step, in my view. The world watches and does ZERO.>
The Jews need Israel. That’s the lesson of 2000 years culminating in the Holocaust. Time and time again. TODAY there are @5000 Jews today living in Poland. Most of these people are over 70. They live under the threat of a revived anti-semitism. Look what is going on in Hungary today. This week David Irving gave a speech to neo-Nazis and the small remnant of the Hungarian Jewish Community was advised to take a vacation out of Budapest. Look at the UK. Look at France. I went on a cruise this summer and met some French Jews. They
are scared.
Israel is the linchpin for every advance the Jewish people has made collectively in the last 60 years.
There is another real lesson
As noted, it’s not just Jews. Stateless people and minority groups are always at risk; Armenians, Kurds, Gypsies.
Hussein Ibish is part of this network. He’s a Kurd. Ask him what he would give for a free and independent Kurdish state. The Kurds have been slaughtered like cattle for centuries. Yet, he wants to destroy the Jewish state.
March 16th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Israel needs to make peace already….stop abusing these people and just agree to let them have land, quit making new ghettos for them.
Humiliation and Child Abuse at Israeli Checkpoints
Strip-Searching Children
By ALISON WEIR
Israeli officials have been regularly strip-searching children for decades, some of them American citizens.
http://www.counterpunch.org/weir03152007.html
March 16th, 2007 at 10:05 am
i have a question for the jewish americans on this board.
whats wrong with the claims made by the anti zionist jewish organizations about how the zionist left them without succor when they asked for their help during the holocaust to avoid being sent to the camps? they seem jewish and they are not very happy about zionism, does the mainstream jewish community know of these claims by this jewish group.
this is from their website this morning…
Rabbi Mordechai Gifter, Dean of Telshe Yeshiva, Cleveland Ohio
We know the truth. The truth is that Zionism is a curse, and that’s the way it is. Zionism is murder! And that’s what it really is, because it is true! Who threw the Jews into the ocean when they wanted to travel to Eretz Yisroel in 1941? Who sank the boat (called the ‘Patria’) with about 1000 Jews on it? Who? The Nazis? Zionists did it! Yes, the Zionists! What is that? Is it not murder? Murderers!! Because of Zionism, one is allowed to kill Jews? Didn’t these murderers say that the Jews of Europe are the “sacrifices” which we have to bring to have a Jewish “state” in Eretz Yisroel (G-d forbid)? Didn’t they say this? Don’t they have printed black and white statements which everybody can read? Didn’t this man with the name, “Yitzchok Greenbaum” say in Warsaw that all religious Jews should be thrown into the ocean? And all this because of Zionism! And he wasn’t ashamed of these words! I ask you: Is this right? Is this being nice? Is this grace? This is MURDER! Without any excuse, it is murder! G-d comes and punishes us, and He says to us that if we brought up in our midst such and Esau - one who is against Torah, against religion, against everything a Jew is - then we suggest a hint to the world, and it calls us Racists, Murderers, Terrorists! We are called murderers, who kill women and children. The Gentiles say this and it makes an impression on us, and we scream. How terrible! How can they speak this way about the Jewish people?
March 16th, 2007 at 10:12 am
after looking a little further over at the jewsagainstzionism board i came across this….how do those of you who are jewish feel about this claim..
this is from their website….can this be true?
Rabbi Klaussner
After the war, a Zionist “religious” leader, Rabbi Klaussner, who was in charge of displaced persons presented a report before the Jewish American Conference on May 2nd, 1948 :
“I am convinced people must be forced to go to Palestine…For them, an American dollar appears as the highest of goals. By the word “force”, I am suggesting a programme. It served for the evacuation of the Jews in Poland, and in the history of the ‘Exodus’… To apply this programme we must, instead of providing ‘displaced persons’ with comfort, create the greatest possible discomfort for them…At a second stage, a procedure calling upon the Haganah to harass the Jews.”
the more i read on this subject of zionism the more i realize that there is more here than meets the eye.
March 16th, 2007 at 11:13 am
I would hope that all Jews have affiliation with Israel weather we like it or not. If Zionism has failed, we still have a reponsibility to fix the problem, whatever that may mean. I find the data upsetting not because I think we should all be Pro-Israel, whatever that means, but I do think we have a responsibility for Israel’s actions, good and bad. We can’t abandon it simply becuase it upsets us. Talk about a fair weather friends.
March 16th, 2007 at 11:51 am
So your solution is that all Jews should drop the idea of national self determination, and simply adopt and adjust to permanent minority status in a large number of countries then? Other than the US, (and maybe Canada) what countries are you proposing? Russia, France,? Shall we shift from one country to the next when things get bad again? Or in this scenario has the problem of anti-semitism magically evaporated? And in that scenario, what do you propose is to be done with the six million Jews in Israel? Shall they be de-nationalized and randomly re-patriated? Its just not realistic to make that set of demands.
March 16th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
dactylifera Says:
We can’t abandon it simply becuase it upsets us..
i agree 100% on this point, israels existence ought to be supported, but their prior ideology is being condemned around the world by jews and non jews alike, and the zionist still insist on a greater israel.
the united states doesnt help by trying to use the nation of israel as a buffering power in the middle east to ensure access to its natural resourses.
it is a very complicated issue and the parties with vested interests in the area have proven they cannot agree on anything.
March 16th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Scott, any thoughts on where this comes from?
March 16th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Alan Cheney wrote
I believe that there exists in this world, pathological, genocidal hatred toward Jews.
Scott, any thoughts on where this comes from?
Jealousy. Anti-Semitism like Anti-Americanism is grounded in envy. It’s why Cleveland Indians fans hate the Yankees. The Yankees are great and the Indians suck.
March 16th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
R - I do not support ethnic nationalism. I do not think the solution to the problem of persecution of ethnic minorities is for each ethnic minority to have its own separate state.
Ethnic separatism has led to nothing but trouble historically - look at the partition of India, at the war in the Balkans, at what is going on now in Iraq.
Since ethnic groups are interpenetrated in most geographic areas, and natural resources are not distributed along ethnic lines, the ethnic state is lead almost inexorably into ethnic cleansing and hegemonic war.
A state should confer equal rights and status on all persons (and, if you will, “nations”) within its borders, and citizenship should not be based on religious belief, race, or ethnic origin.
By the way, since I’ve criticized Israel for ethnic exclusivity, I should say that I am equally opposed to the idea of Islamic theocracy and to the policies of Arab states that limit or ban Jewish immigration or give Jews distinct status (even when it is a relatively protected status, as in Iran).
The problem of hate and discrimination will never evaporate. The Jews will never be safe.
Let’s face it: humans will never be safe. We are all potentially victims of terrible violence.
We need to try not to do this to each other.
PS - you’ll notice I did not propose to do anything with the six million Jews of Israel. You’re the one who suggested disbanding it, no? My hope is that it will make peace with its neighbors and evolve, over a generation or two, into a multiethnic democracy where Arabs, Christians and Jews all have equal rights.
Dactylifera is absolutely right: we have a shared responsibility to work toward this.
March 16th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
There are some real differences at work here. But lets use the example of India and Pakistan for a moment. I assume that you are aware of the vast population exchange of Hindus and Moslems roughly arround the smae time as Israel’s independence? Millions of Hindus left the future state of Pakistan for India and millions of Moslems left India for Pakistan. The large number of Moslems that remained in India remained as loyal citizens of the state. Moslem soldiers have fought inthe Indian army in every war against Pakistan. Thats the real difference between Moslems in India and Moslems in Israel. Is their primary loyalty to the state first?
As to the multi-ethnic idea, Israel is ALREADY multi-ethnic where Jews, Moslems and Christians have equal rights, its the Arab states that exclude Jews by law. It is the Palestinian Moslems that have declared “all of Palestine to be an Islamic Wakf for Moslems only.” Everyone on this board is in favor of”peace with the neighbors” its the “neighbors” that aren’t in favor of peace with Israel. Maybe your persuasive talents would be better expended towards the Arab side of this equation.
March 16th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
so you really think that the jews have been kicked out of different countries because someone is jealous and wants to be jewish or because they want to disposses them of their wealth. remember not all are wealthy, usually only a small minority is.
you said this…Jealousy. Anti-Semitism like Anti-Americanism is grounded in envy.
can the internet be correct …i just googled it and it seems to say that jews have been kicked out of countries some 214 times…..
March 16th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
The nail that sticks up, is the one that gets hammered on. Like Benjamin Disraeli said, “If Jews are nervous, its the result of 1900 years of Ch—-ian kindness.”
Jews lived as permanent foriegners, at the whim of the ruler in the of Ch—-ian and Moslem worlds. To the of Ch—-ians, their church demonized Jews as Ch—t Killers via repalcement theology. And to make it worse, Jews doggedly refused to convert. To the Moslems Jews were a dhimmi people and Kelbe Yahud. And to make it worse, Jews doggedly refused to convert. Jews formed their own communites and stayed within as best as they could in order to preserve the language, religion, culture etc. That was viewed as being “different”,”clannish”, stand off ish”, often speaking a different language than the rest of the population etc.
In a nutshell, ignorance breeds prejudice.
March 16th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
R said “However, I stand by my initial thought as the vast majority of Israel bashing Jews that I have interacted with, tend to be those of Jewish heritage only, typically of a far left orientation, and generally non-practicing. Usually if one getsinto a detailed conversation, they don’;t really have a grasps of either Judaism or history.”
R, you nailed it.
March 17th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Scott, run out of intellectual arguments have you?
Do you know what ad hominem means? Do you understand why it’s not a good idea to resort to ad hominem attacks in a civil discussion? Do you know how it makes you look?
Didn’t think so.
March 17th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
R said “However, I stand by my initial thought as the vast majority of Israel bashing Jews that I have interacted with, tend to be those of Jewish heritage only, typically of a far left orientation, and generally non-practicing. Usually if one getsinto a detailed conversation, they don’;t really have a grasps of either Judaism or history.”
R, you nailed it.
frankly it is my contention that those who support peace in palestine/israel and feel strongly that the zionist government is not genuinely interested in peace with the palestinias under anything other than their own terms are better informed about what zionisms ideology is and the crimes they have commited in the past. while those who support it unconditionally are doing it because they feel pride at being able to have a homeland for the jews.
but why dont these proud jews go to their homeland?
maybe if the zionist have their ways a new anti semitism will come to life and scare them back to their ancestral home….it did in the past as told by the jewsagainstzionism.com website.
be careful out there, the zionist have fomented anti semitism before to frighten jews to leave their arab homelands for israel, only to find themselves treated like second class citizens due to the darker color of their skin.
the stories have been told by jews who played a role in fomenting the anti semitism and terrorism against other jews so they would go and populate the zionist state of israel.
dont be caught flatfooted on this one my jewish friends.
March 19th, 2007 at 8:40 am
How can you say that Anti-semitism is based upon envy? Who in their right mind would want to be a Jew? I mean we’re discussing the Shoah to some extent here.
According to quite a few sources, including jewsagainstzionism, the Zionists were complicit in the Shoah.
We must also remember that it is hypocritical to say “Never again” if Jews are doing ethnic cleansing in Israel. “Never again” has to apply to EVERYONE!
It is even more hypocritical to say “Never again” if the Jews exacerbated the Shoah.