Interesting tidbits.
Posted on March 13 2007 by Cecilie Surasky under Educational Institutions , StandWithUs , ZOA.Generational change is scary. Very scary.
New Voices has a wrap-up of the recent unsuccessful attempts by the Zionist Organization of America and StandWithUs to have the Union of Progressive Zionists kicked out of the Israel on Campus Coalition for sponsoring a tour of Israeli soldiers (Breaking the Silence) critical of and traumatized by their military service in the West Bank.
Shapiro remained undaunted. “I think the outcome sends a message that even though these well-established, older, better-funded organizations were advocating our removal, the ICC chose to listen to the voice of youth. I hope this is a sign of changing times where there will be no such thing as a Jewish thought police and the voice of Jewish youth will be regarded as important.”
The Baltimore Sun printed Yakov M. Rabkin’s op-ed: Gap among Jews widens on question of Zionism.
Many Jews try to come to terms with the contradictions between the Judaism they profess to adhere to and the Zionist ideology that has taken hold of them. This coincides with serious concerns expressed across Israel’s political and religious spectrum about the future of Israel.
Quite a few Jews now publicly ask whether the chronically besieged ethnic nation-state in the Middle East is “good for the Jews.” Many continue to be concerned that militant Zionism destroys Jewish moral values and endangers Jews in Israel and elsewhere.
In case you missed it in WaPo, David Saperstein of the Religious Action Center has an important message to deliver to the Jews Rabkin is talking about in his op-ed:
To deny Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state is anti-Semitic; to be critical of Israeli policy is not.
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March 13th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
“To deny Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state is anti-Semitic; to be critical of Israeli policy is not.”
a good quote. so which is it cecile? are you critical of some of israel’s policies, or do you deny israel’s right to exist as a jewish state?
March 13th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Yehudi,
Why would Israel have the right to exist as a Jewish state? Only if it were fulfilling its responsibilities to the Jewish people. Is it? That is exactly the question being asked, my friend. Zionism is no longer a dream. It’s not something that exists in the world of big ideas. It’s a reality. It’s not that pretty. It can’t be judged by fine words and promises, it has to be judged by facts. It’s not on Cecile’s opinion whether Israel SHOULD exist. It’s on Israel’s actions whether it CAN exist. And don’t start blaming it on the Arabs. The Arabs exist. Get used to it.
March 14th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
no, let’s not blame anything on the Arabs who, until Sadat, refused to accept Israel’s existence in any way; of course, the Palestinian leadership has always been very direct about its intentions (from the Hamas charter: “there is no path except jihad” and “all of Palestine is a waqf and none may be given away”). Let’s not look at what an amazingly open and accomplished society Israel has built despite a near-constant state of war for 60 years– to paraphrase Tom Friedman, Israel has the Technion and the Arabs have “Hezbollah High School”.
Zionism is reality– warts and all. And it’s done a damn sight better than every single Arab country (all of whom are apartheid states based on religion, all of whom are homophobic and misogynistic) as well as most other new countries in the world.
Which facts would you like– educational accomplishments? standard of living? political freedom? civil rights? in which of these areas has Israel failed so miserably and utterly, so much more than any country in the world, that it deserves the “death penalty”?
Cecelie would have us open up our own community institutions (such as Hillel, Federations, etc.) and use the money donated by community members (like me) to subsidize bringing anti-Zionist activists to campuses. Sorry, we’re not stretching our (communal) necks out over THAT chopping block. There’s plenty of places that those opposed to Israel’s existence can gather to hear like-minded speakers– for example, JVP’s upcoming convention! We don’t need to sponsor them within our own community organizations.
March 14th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
why does any country have a right to exist? why should france be a country for the french.
that’s the way the world works. yes the arabs exist, but so does israel.
israel IS fulfilling its obligations to the jewish people by being a place that jews can go if they are oppressed elsewhere. and if it’s not fulfilling its obligations, then feel free to criticize, but that certainly doesn’t mean israel has lost its right to exist. that cannot and will not be taken away.
again, you have a double standard. no one questions saudi arabia’s right to exist, for example, even though they have no voting rights and women can’t drive and all the other terrible things they do to their own people. but if israel does something someone doesn’t like, their legitimacy as a state is questioned. that is a double standard.
March 14th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
I don’t have a double standard. Nobody questions France’s right to exist, true, but they certainly question the rights of the Abkhazians, Basques, Circassians, Kurds, Zulus, and literally thousands of other peoples — to have their own states. I’m not suggesting Israel should not exist, I’m just saying that if it rests on a “right,” which is a moral claim, what exactly is this moral claim? You say “Israel IS fulfilling its obligations to the jewish people by being a place that jews can go if they are oppressed elsewhere.” Many Jews see Israeli policies as illegal, immoral and reckless, contrary to their idea of what being Jewish means, and that these policies and actions represent a potential, if not actual, threat to Jews everywhere. “So criticize.” Right, we do criticize, but the “Israel firsters” do not take kindly to criticism, and their responses to it tend to be WAY over the top, and they do lots more damage. They support policies and groups, like the Christian right, that are harmful to Jews and utterly against Jewish values. Everything is rationalized by “Israel’s survival” “Israel’s survival” “Israel’s survival.” If I really had to support people like John Hagee — which I don’t, fortunately — to ensure Israel’s survival — let me tell you, it is not worth it. Exactly the opposite. Hagee stands for everything that is destructive to the Jewish people. Arab terrorists are responsible for the deaths of a few thousand Jews. Hagee’s policies (by his own admission!) would lead to the destruction of nearly all Jews, and untold millions of others besides. The leadership he represents fit the profile of psychopaths and sociopaths to a “T.” Jim Jones staked out his territory among poor urban minorities — Hagee and his ilk are more sophisticated, and they have bigger fish to fry. Other than that they’re cut from the same mold.
The Xian right is not supporting Israel, the Xian right is actively redefining Israel for its own purposes.
But somehow all this is supposed to be “good for Israel.”
Those who support everything Israel does talk as if nothing could have been or could be otherwise — as if every time Israel builds another illegal settlement, that’s just how it is, they were just were just swept along by the forces of history and it couldn’t have been otherwise — those who see things that way are not helping Israel — as many Israelis themselves are continually pointing out.
March 14th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Only Israel has any obligations towards Peace, while the Palestinians have only demands and empty excuses for non-performance? That doesn’t make any sense. Similarly, perhaps the pressure to be applied should be applied to the Palestinians to honor their current Oslo related commitment to non-violence (which was never implemented). Why would Israel want to exchange “land for peace” when the Palestinians have made it quite clear that its really “land for hollow promises.”
March 14th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
itzikl, i mostly agree with you.
all those other peoples should have a safe place to live too; the fact that there is no kurdistan doesn’t mean that israel should be disbanded. israel exists, that’s a fact, that’s forever.
so what if israel-firsters say what they say? they have their opinion about what’s good for israel and jewish people, and you have yours. debate away. i don’t support the love affair some are having with the christian right, but i’m happy to disagree with those who do. if you think a policy of the israeli government is immoral, protest away, as we do with the US government.
but you must admit that there are those who run this site, and post on this site, that do call for the destruction of israel. they are not merely critical of israel’s policies, they are critical of israel’s existence. what do they think will happen to the jews there if israel is gone? what happened to the jews in the other arab countries. calling for the destruction of israel is calling for a 2nd holocaust. so be aware of the company you keep.
i personally don’t know anyone who supports everything israel does. but we sure support her existence.
March 14th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
yehudi,
you write “there are those who run this site, and post on this site, that do call for the destruction of israel. they are not merely critical of israel’s policies, they are critical of israel’s existence.”
There are people who are critical of Israel’s existence, whether they post on this site or not. Here’s the real question — who is a greater danger, those who call for Israel’s destruction, or those who are actively leading Israel to destruction through their hysteria and arrogance? I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I strongly believe it’s the latter. And anyway, the two phenomena are closely related.
Now, is “Israel’s existence” some kind of abstract category,
or is the nature of Israel’s existence defined by what it actually does? The Israel firsters want you to believe the former — it’s all explained by “antisemitism,” the fundamental factor of the universe. Common sense tells you that Israel’s existence would appear differently if Israel conducted itself differently.
The initial resentment of the Arabs is totally understandable. But Israel is an established fact in the region, and the “calls for Israel’s destruction” are rhetorical posturing for BOTH sides.
As for all the peoples of the world having a safe place to live, yes of course; but once again, the question is, does that mean an independent state? It sounds nice, but the fact is that all over the world, ethnic conflicts are the main motivators of war today, and not simply on their own, but by attracting covert instigators and manipulators among global corporations and major state powers. The carnage that would result from each of these peoples fighting for an independent state would be unbelievable.
SMALL PEOPLES CANNOT PLAY ON AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD WITH THE GREAT POWERS. If they try, they can only be manipulated, with the help of a ruling class who eagerly partner with the manipulators — and this already explains a lot about the history of Israel. The only way small peoples can do well as a society is through a balancing act, being expert diplomats, not looking for trouble. Look at Finland, Costa Rica, Switzerland, Singapore (in terms of international relations).
Again — I am a very strong supporter of ethnic cultural and economic rights, rights to control their own lands, etc., but having your own state is not the only way and in most cases absolutely impossible. This is a complex issue but I don’t want to get sidetracked. Israel already is an independent state, and the two worst policy decisions Israel ever made were (a) to decide to become a ward of the Empire (Anglo/American) rather than a peaceful player in their own region (yes, that was, and still is, an option), and (b) to annex the territories in 1967 and everything that’s followed from that. Both seem, superficially, shortsightedlly, one-dimensionally, “an advantage” — but the reality is quite the opposite.
March 15th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
“Here’s the real question — who is a greater danger, those who call for Israel’s destruction, or those who are actively leading Israel to destruction through their hysteria and arrogance?”
clearly, it’s the former. the latter is your opinion. you think that some of the actions of those people are bad, even ultimately destructive to israel. that is your opinion, and obviously you have the right to it. but those people are not trying to destroy israel, that is not their stated goal, you are just in disagreement with them about what it best for israel.
the former, however, are people that actively, explicitly state that their goal is the destruction of the state. they are not doing things that they think are good for israel but the other side disagrees with; they are actively trying to destroy israel, and that is their stated goal.
the 2 aren’t even close.
“Again — I am a very strong supporter of ethnic cultural and economic rights, rights to control their own lands, etc., but having your own state is not the only way and in most cases absolutely impossible.”
fine, i’m not advocating civil wars all over the planets. but israel exists. again, the fact that there is no kurdistan, and that creating one would instigate a civil war (not that there’s not already a civil war in iraq) does not mean that israel or france or germany or any other country should be disbanded.
at least we’ve got a civilized debate going on here, though.
March 15th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Yehudi,
They are both trying to destroy Israel. But the Right-wingers are doing an incomparably more effective job of it. And, as an added bonus, the more influence they have, the more terrorist attacks there will be. But terrorists attacks will never destroy Israel, you know that as well as I do. They just help the Right-wingers. And round and round we go. But who is the more powerful? It’s a no-brainer, pal.
March 15th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Is Kadima right or left? I can’t tell and those terms are becoming meaningless in this context.
March 16th, 2007 at 5:34 am
Cecilie Surasky and JVP once again demonstrate why JVP and Muzzlewatch have no credibility. They claim that Stand With Us tried to have the Union of Progressive Zionists kicked out of the Israel on Campus Coalition .
Their reference for this libel?
An article which says nothing of the kind!
If you follow the link which Surasky foolishly provided, you find that SWU opposed the “Breaking the Silence” exhibition. The exhibition was controverial for numerous reasons, and even staunch liberals such as J.J. Goldberg spoke out against it.
Opposition to the exhibition, however, is not the same as trying to expel UPZ from the Israel on Campus Coalition. If JVP/Muzzlewatch has any evidence that Stand With Us tried to have UPZ expelled from the Israel on Campus Coalition, then please provide it.
If they do not, then fairness and honesty demands that they retract this libelous accusation.
March 16th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Right, we do criticize, but the “Israel firsters” do not take kindly to criticism, and their responses to it tend to be WAY over the top, and they do lots more damage. They support policies and groups, like the Christian right, that are harmful to Jews and utterly against Jewish values.
That is speculation that is not based upon fact but opinion. It is just as easy to point the finger in the opposite direction.